Function of the Law in Salvation

[Pilgrim7]

Wow!! So much for Christian love, now back on topic once again.

Letter versus Spirit #7

The 7th Commandment one of the more basic, dealing with the passions of the 'carnal man' forbidding the exercise of such in any way except as God has designed and commanded. Is one justified or saved by keeping this commandment, of course not. Is this the totality of God's will concerning the conduct of man/woman in this area? Not at all.

The Letter of the Law- - The 7th Commandment

Exo 20:14

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

The 7th Commandment deals only with the physical acts. Jesus, who gave the 'Commandments' and was the 'living example' of them, now expanded them to include the very thoughts and desires. He also used the term to condemn Idolatry, which is spiritual adultery against our True husband, Jesus.

The Spirit of the Law

Now Jesus, in the 'Spirit of the law', expands this Commandment, as He did all the others, showing the purity of heart required and provided by His indwelling presence.

7th Commandment expanded:

Mat 5:28

But I say to you, that

whoever

looks on a woman

to

lust after

(desire)

her

has

committed

adultery

with her already

in his

heart

.

2pe 2:12

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,

speak evil

of the things that they

understand not

;

and shall

utterly perish

in their

own corruption;

2:13

And shall receive the

reward

of unrighteousness

(sin),

as they that count it pleasure to riot

(live in luxury and ease)

in the day time.

Spots

they are and

blemishes

,

sporting themselves with

their own

deceivings

while

they feast

with you

(professing believers);

2:14 Having

eyes full

of adultery,

and that

cannot cease

from sin;

beguiling

unstable souls

: a

heart

they have

exercised

with covetous practices;

cursed children:

2:15

Which have

forsaken

the right way,

and are

gone astray

,

following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who

loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Men, do you hear what Jesus is saying, the 'letter of the law' deals mainly with actions, but the 'Spirit of the law' deals with the 'carnal heart' which prompts those actions showing not only the need for forgiveness, justification of one's actions, but a 'new heart' the ongoing justification of one's heart's desires, for the flesh does not just disappear upon conversion.

The Purity of the 'New Heart' received at conversion which is when one is justified for all previously committed sins.

Mat 5:8

Blessed are the

pure

in heart:

(not just action)

for they shall see God.

What do the pure in heart do with their minds?

Phil 4:8

Finally, brethren,

whatever

things are

true,

whatever things are

honest,

whatever things are

just,

whatever things are

pure

,

whatever things are

lovely,

whatever things are of

good report;

if there be

any virtue,

or

praise,

think

on

these

things.

What is the end result that the Commandments are to lead to?

1Tim 1:5

Now the

end

(result)

of the commandment

is

charity

(love toward God and our neighbor)

out of a

pure heart

,

and of a

good conscience,

and of

faith unfeigned

(without hypocrisy; that works by love, keeping God's Commandments):

1:6

From which

some

having

swerved

have

turned aside

to vain jangling;

What do the pure in heart do with Indwelling sinful thoughts?

2Tim 2:22

Flee

also

youthful

lusts

(desires):

but

follow righteousness

,

faith, charity, peace,

with them that call on the Lord

out of a

pure heart

.

What do the pure in heart do with sinful actions?

1John 3:2

Beloved,

now

are we the sons of God,

and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear,

we shall be like him;

for we shall see him as he is.

3:3

And

every man

that

has this hope

in him

purifies himself

,

even

as

he

is

pure

(how pure?).

3:4

Whoever

commits sin

transgresses

also the

law

:

for

sin is

the

transgression

of the

law

.

3:5

And you know that he was manifested to

take away

our sins

(not just the guilt);

and in him is no sin.

3:6

Whoever

abides

in him

sins not

:

whoever

sins

(presumptuous, known sin, which is transgression of the Law, without confession and repentance)

has

not seen him,

neither

known him.

3:7

Little children,

let

no man

deceive you

(there is no point in which there is more deception today than this very point):

he that

does

righteousness is

righteous

,

even as

he

is

righteous

(and did righteousness and kept the Righteous law of God).

3:8

He that

commits sin

(now what does verse 4 say sin is?

) is

of the Devil

(my friends, these are not my words, these are the words of God, thus the words of Jesus, through His servant John);

for the

devil sinned from the beginning.

For

this purpose

the Son of God was manifested, that

he might

destroy

the

works

of the devil

(and what are those works? The sins that are identified by the Law, the Ten Commandments He has been doing this work ever since the Garden when He convinced Adam and Eve to 'be Commandment breakers').

3:9

Whoever is

born of God

does not

commit sin

(known, presumptuous, unrepented of transgression of God's Law, especially the Ten Commandments);

for his seed

(Jesus the promised seed, the indwelling Jesus)

remains in him: and

he can not sin

(will not commit known, presumptuous unrepented of sin),

because he is

born of God

(born again).

Here again these are not my words, but the words of Our Savior, who ought to know what He is talking about. Does this mean that the 'believer' cannot or will not ever sin? No! it says that those who abide in Christ, won't sin. The believer who does not abide in Christ, abide in His Crucifixion with Christ, who feeds not on Christ, will not be able to be kept by Christ and will surely fall. Does this mean that then he is totally lost, of course not. Thank God for 'ongoing' justification in which he can confess and repent from this new sin and be forgiven and justified, accounted righteous again thus justified from any continuing transgression of the 'Will of God'. This concept is developed by John in John chapter 15. Yet this Scriptural truth sure does away with the heretical concepts and deceptions that man can't overcome known, presumptuous sin as described in God's Ten Commandments

Thus we have the 'letter of the law', dealing mainly with physical acts, and the 'Spirit of the law', the Holy Spirit, which deals with the 'evil heart of man' which leads to the evil acts of breaking God's Commandments. You see the Gospel includes, make the tree, the heart, good and its fruit, thoughts and acts, will be good and this only happens when Christ dwells in the heart. So we see, that the 'letter of the Law' is fulfilled, kept and loved by the believer who has the 'Spirit of the law' dwelling within.

God bless you all,

Dennis

[Guest shiloh357]

Here again these are not my words, but the words of Our Savior, who ought to know what He is talking about. Does this mean that the 'believer' cannot or will not ever sin? No! it says that those who abide in Christ, won't sin.

Actually, what it says from the Greek is that He will not sin habitually or live in a continuous lifestyle of sin.

There is no such thing as a "believer" that does not abide Christ. You are either a believer or not. If you are believer it is by virtue of abiding in Christ, but moreso, that He abides in you. It is Christ in us, that secures our salvation, not our own efforts of trying to remain in Him.

Abiding in Christ is position. It is the Father who places us in Christ. It is known as positional justification. When we are saved we are no longer members of Adam's race, but are members of the Kingdom of God, and we are taken out of Adam and placed into Christ. We are no longer under law, but under grace, and as a result we are not under the dominion of sin. All of those things from Romans 6 pertain to our new position in Christ. We are placed in Christ by the Father. We do not effect this "abiding" under our own power, or by fruit of our own efforts. This is borne out even more in John 15.

Every commandment of God is accompanied by the power and grace to see that commandemnt to completion. The commandment to abide in Him is effected by God, not by us. It is by His power that we continue to abide. Our conduct is the result of that reality not the means of making it come to pass.

The believer who does not abide in Christ, abide in His Crucifixion with Christ, who feeds not on Christ, will not be able to be kept by Christ and will surely fall.

That statement is a logical and biblical contradiction. Anyone who does is not abiding in Christ, or anything else that you list above, would not be a believer in the first place. So that remark simply doesn't wash.

Does this mean that then he is totally lost, of course not.

The person you describe above would be totally lost; in fact that would be a textbook definition of a lost person. Geez louise!!

Thank God for 'ongoing' justification in which he can confess and repent from this new sin and be forgiven and justified, accounted righteous again thus justified from any continuing transgression of the 'Will of God'.

You are confusing terms because you are using unbiblical terms. What you call "ongoing" justification is really sanctifcation. Sanctification is tied to what we do. Justification is based solely upon what Jesus did. Sanctifcation is the process by which we continue daily to be delivered old sins, habits and so forth. Justification by the simple defintion of the Greek term is nothing more than a legal term. It is not something that is processional that continues to be worked out in our lives. It is a one time judicial decree declaring that you are no longer a guilty sinner. You no longer bear the sentence of death. The old account has been settled and you are now free from the curse death pronounced upon Adam's race. This is effected by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

One is not justifed with respect to past sins. Justification really is has nothing to do with past sins, but with the justice of God that says that sin (man's spiritual condition into which he was born) must be punished and that punishment is death. Death is the penalty of being born a sinner, a member of Adam's race. Justification is the product of Jesus' death on the cross which satisfies God's justice. Legally, God is justified in destroying all of humanity, but Jesus satisfied God's justice by His death. He bore the penalty of death on our behalf and now, we simply have to accept His finished work in order to be declared not guilty.

That happens only once. Our sins, the things we do, are a different story. Those are things we must confess everyday for the cleansing of our conscience. Confessing sins, does not rejustify us. Confession of sins does not maintatin our salvation. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses our conscience when we confess them and He removes the guilt and condemnation associated with those sins.

Thus we have the 'letter of the law', dealing mainly with physical acts, and the 'Spirit of the law', the Holy Spirit, which deals with the 'evil heart of man' which leads to the evil acts of breaking God's Commandments.

Actually, that is not an accurate representation of the relationship of the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, as the Holy Spirit is not the "spirit of the law." That is erroneious theology.

So we see, that the 'letter of the Law' is fulfilled, kept and loved by the believer who has the 'Spirit of the law' dwelling within.

Actually Romans 8:4 teaches that it Christ is fullfilling the law within us.

[hr.jr.]

Today the function of the Law in Salvation is not understood and thus has been entirely disregarded. A strange situation indeed, especially since Jesus said that He didn

[hr.jr.]

Let's stick to the topic BROTHERS.

I do have to agree with Shiloh, the blood is for sins (deed) the cross is for sin (nature).

Once again let us stick to the topic.

The Blood was shed on the Cross. You can not separate the cross from the Blood. The "cross" is misunderstood. The term "The Cross" properly refers to Jesus death and all it encompasses. "The Cross" refers to the death, burial, and ressurrection, of our Savior. The term identifies the entire process. The term "calvary" can also be substituted for "the Cross." I see no need to complicate a simple concept.

[hr.jr.]

Let's stick to the topic BROTHERS.

I do have to agree with Shiloh, the blood is for sins (deed) the cross is for sin (nature).

Once again let us stick to the topic.

The Blood was shed on the Cross. You can not separate the cross from the Blood. The "cross" is misunderstood. The term "The Cross" properly refers to Jesus death and all it encompasses. "The Cross" refers to the death, burial, and ressurrection, of our Savior. The term identifies the entire process. The term "calvary" can also be substituted for "the Cross." I see no need to complicate a simple concept.

Actually there is no complication. It was by the Cross that the old man was slain. The cross was never for our deeds, and infact it cant be for our deeds. Without blood there is not remission of sins as in deeds. What seems to be missed is that there is a difference between what the blood does and what the Cross does. The blood can not deal with the nature of man, this is why the cross is necessary. Notice what Christ says, "deny yourself, take up your cross . It is fairly simple. The Cross is not just a term it is a pratical application, just as the blood is not a term but a pratical application.

The Cross is worthless without the Blood of our Savior shed on it. The cross is a couple pieces of wood and some nails. The shed blood of Savior on the Cross gives the "cross" its relavence. Jesus Death, Bural, and Resurrection provides our Salvation. It provides our complete attonement. The two pieces of wood did nothing.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Cross is worthless without the Blood of our Savior shed on it. The cross is a couple pieces of wood and some nails. The shed blood of Savior on the Cross gives the "cross" its relavence. Jesus Death, Bural, and Resurrection provides our Salvation. It provides our complete attonement. The two pieces of wood did nothing.

You are missing the point. You need to study the difference between the work of the cross and the work of the blood as outlined in the first eight chapters of Romans. Paul deals with both. Romans 1:1 - 5:11 deals with the blood and Romans 5:12 - 8:32 deals with the work of the cross. Obviously we are not talking about two pieces of wood but of two different works that were accomplished in the sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross.

[Pilgrim7]

There would seem to be an effort to derail the topic. I wonder why? I would respectfully ask people to stay on topic. If you wish to argue justification, the cross, or the blood, please be courteous enough to open up your own topic and have at it. This is a thread on the 'Ten Commandments'. Now Back to the Basics, back to the words of Jesus and back on topic:

Now as to not doing away with the Ten Commandments:

Mat 5:18

For verily I say unto you,

until

heaven and earth

pass away

(I don't think that this has happened yet, unless maybe I missed it),

one jot or one tittle shall in

no way pass

from the

law

,

until all

be fulfilled

(which would include the passing away of the earth).

Now as to those who break God's Commandments and those who keep and teach them:

Mat 5:19

Whoever

(Now here is some radical theology, I believe whoever actually means whoever)

therefore shall

break one

of these

least

commandments,

and shall

teach

men so,

he shall be called the

least

in the kingdom of heaven:

but

whoever

shall

do

and

teach

them,

the same shall be

called great

in the kingdom of heaven.

(some more radical theology here, for I actually believe what Jesus is saying here, just as it reads, without any need for man to seek to try to tell me that He really means the opposite)

Now as to the Commandments of Men:

Mat 15:9

But

in vain

they do

worship

me,

teaching

for

doctrines

the

commandments

of men

(that would be in the place of God's Commandments).

Now Jesus can't be any clearer than this:

Mat 19:17

And he said to him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but

if

you will

enter

into

life

,

keep

the commandments.

These are the words of Our Savior. They are not my words and not my twisted understanding of them. Even a child can read and understand them. There is no 'double speak' here. Our Savior is not seeking to mislead anyone here, but just telling the truth, for He is the truth and he cannot lie and doesn't play games with anyone, but makes clear what is required of the 'believer'. Ask a child to read and explain them to you and see what happens.

You see Jesus is the truth, thus all that He said is truth and man's perverted understanding of some of Paul's statements will never change the above. All of what Paul wrote must fit into these words of Jesus, or one has an incorrect view of what Paul said. That is the purpose of this thread, to show that what Paul says does indeed fit into the words of Jesus. Either these words are truth, or Jesus is a liar. I, for one, don't want to be part of the group that calls Jesus a liar.

[Guest shiloh357]

There would seem to be an effort to derail the topic. I wonder why? I would respectfully ask people to stay on topic.

There is no attempt to derail the topic. We are responding to and quoting YOUR words which you posted. You are the one who brought up the nonsense about "ongoing justification." We are refuting your legalistic, works-based, "look at how holy I am 'cause I keep the law" system of righteousness.

Now as to not doing away with the Ten Commandments:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass away(I don't think that this has happened yet, unless maybe I missed it), one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, until all be fulfilled (which would include the passing away of the earth).

Jesus is not talking about merely the 10 commandments. Jesus was talking about the entire law and the prophets, if we look just one verse back (v. 17).

Now as to those who break God's Commandments and those who keep and teach them:

Mat 5:19 Whoever (Now here is some radical theology, I believe whoever actually means whoever) therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (some more radical theology here, for I actually believe what Jesus is saying here, just as it reads, without any need for man to seek to try to tell me that He really means the opposite)

The problem is that you equate the above with someone not teaching in accordance to what YOU believe about the law. I don't know of any mainline Christian demonminations who teach against the 10 commandments or teach people to break such commandments. Their observance may not match your own. They may not keep the Sabbath on the same day YOU do, but there is no one teaching people to break the commandments.

Part of the problem with your theology regarding those of us you consider "law breakers" is that you operate from a false premise about what we believe and teach about "the law." Your premise is that we are against the 10 commandments and that we teach people that we don't need the law, don't need to keep the law, and so forth, and no one has ever said such a thing. What we have said is that we are not under an obligation to observe it under Jewish patterns (though there is nothing wrong with that) and that we don't have to observe in order to secure our salvation. You, however, must cast our position as one of being anti-law, and that could not be further from the truth. We (I) simply disagree with you over the underlying purpose of observing the commandments.

If were to follow this bargain basement theology of yours to its logical conclusion, millions upon millions of nonSabbath keeping Christians are law breakers just because they don't keep the "Sabbath" on the same day you do, which is really what this entire thread ulimately leads to.

Now Jesus can't be any clearer than this:

Mat 19:17 And he said to him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.

These are the words of Our Savior. They are not my words and not my twisted understanding of them. Even a child can read and understand them. There is no 'double speak' here. Our Savior is not seeking to mislead anyone here, but just telling the truth, for He is the truth and he cannot lie and doesn't play games with anyone, but makes clear what is required of the 'believer'. Ask a child to read and explain them to you and see what happens.

Actually, Jesus was not saying that eternal life is gained by keeping the commandments. You fail to understand Jesus' point to the rich young ruler. Jesus was showing the man that despite what he thought, he had not truly kept the commandments from childhood as he claimed.

It is true that if one perfectly kept the commandments one would indeed be saved. However, there is no way anyone can do that. To perfectly keep the commandments, one would have to do so without the stain of original sin. Jesus, although 100% human was not a member of Adam's race. Jesus did not have the taint of original sin, and therefore, Jesus kept the commandments perfectly on every level they could be kept. With us, that is not possible, nor is it expected. Even if you kept the law to the letter everyday, it would not be enough.

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that no one is justified by the law or the keeping of the law. (Rom 3:20, Rom 3:28; Rom 4:6; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:9; 2Ti 1:9)

The problem is that your view does not agree with either the words of Jesus or the words of Paul. You are twisting their words to fit your perverted works-based system of righteseousness.

[Guest shiloh357]

well said, Cobalt!

[Pilgrim7]

Wow!! So many words contrary to those of Christ, His 'bargain basement teachings', now back on topic once again.

Letter versus Spirit #7

The 7th Commandment one of the more basic, dealing with the passions of the 'carnal man' forbidding the exercise of such in any way except as God has designed and commanded. Is one justified or saved by keeping this commandment, of course not. Is this the totality of God's will concerning the conduct of man/woman in this area? Not at all.

The Letter of the Law- - The 7th Commandment

Exo 20:14

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

The 7th Commandment deals only with the physical acts. Jesus, who gave the 'Commandments' and was the 'living example' of them, now expanded them to include the very thoughts and desires. He also used the term to condemn Idolatry, which is spiritual adultery against our True husband, Jesus.

The Spirit of the Law

Now Jesus, in the 'Spirit of the law', expands this Commandment, as He did all the others, showing the purity of heart required and provided by His indwelling presence.

7th Commandment expanded:

Mat 5:28

But I say to you, that

whoever

looks on a woman

to

lust after

(desire)

her

has

committed

adultery

with her already

in his

heart

.

2pe 2:12

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,

speak evil

of the things that they

understand not

;

and shall

utterly perish

in their

own corruption;

2:13

And shall receive the

reward

of unrighteousness

(sin),

as they that count it pleasure to riot

(live in luxury and ease)

in the day time.

Spots

they are and

blemishes

,

sporting themselves with

their own

deceivings

while

they feast

with you

(professing believers);

2:14 Having

eyes full

of adultery,

and that

cannot cease

from sin;

beguiling

unstable souls

: a

heart

they have

exercised

with covetous practices;

cursed children:

2:15

Which have

forsaken

the right way,

and are

gone astray

,

following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who

loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Men, do you hear what Jesus is saying, the 'letter of the law' deals mainly with actions, but the 'Spirit of the law' deals with the 'carnal heart' which prompts those actions showing not only the need for forgiveness, justification of one's actions, but a 'new heart' the ongoing justification of one's heart's desires, for the flesh does not just disappear upon conversion.

The Purity of the 'New Heart' received at conversion which is when one is justified for all previously committed sins.

Mat 5:8

Blessed are the

pure

in heart:

(not just action)

for they shall see God.

What do the pure in heart do with their minds?

Phil 4:8

Finally, brethren,

whatever

things are

true,

whatever things are

honest,

whatever things are

just,

whatever things are

pure

,

whatever things are

lovely,

whatever things are of

good report;

if there be

any virtue,

or

praise,

think

on

these

things.

What is the end result that the Commandments are to lead to?

1Tim 1:5

Now the

end

(result)

of the commandment

is

charity

(love toward God and our neighbor)

out of a

pure heart

,

and of a

good conscience,

and of

faith unfeigned

(without hypocrisy; that works by love, keeping God's Commandments):

1:6

From which

some

having

swerved

have

turned aside

to vain jangling;

What do the pure in heart do with Indwelling sinful thoughts?

2Tim 2:22

Flee

also

youthful

lusts

(desires):

but

follow righteousness

,

faith, charity, peace,

with them that call on the Lord

out of a

pure heart

.

What do the pure in heart do with sinful actions?

1John 3:2

Beloved,

now

are we the sons of God,

and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear,

we shall be like him;

for we shall see him as he is.

3:3

And

every man

that

has this hope

in him

purifies himself

,

even

as

he

is

pure

(how pure?).

3:4

Whoever

commits sin

transgresses

also the

law

:

for

sin is

the

transgression

of the

law

.

3:5

And you know that he was manifested to

take away

our sins

(not just the guilt);

and in him is no sin.

3:6

Whoever

abides

in him

sins not

:

whoever

sins

(presumptuous, known sin, which is transgression of the Law, without confession and repentance)

has

not seen him,

neither

known him.

3:7

Little children,

let

no man

deceive you

(there is no point in which there is more deception today than this very point):

he that

does

righteousness is

righteous

,

even as

he

is

righteous

(and did righteousness and kept the Righteous law of God).

3:8

He that

commits sin

(now what does verse 4 say sin is?

) is

of the Devil

(my friends, these are not my words, these are the words of God, thus the words of Jesus, through His servant John);

for the

devil sinned from the beginning.

For

this purpose

the Son of God was manifested, that

he might

destroy

the

works

of the devil

(and what are those works? The sins that are identified by the Law, the Ten Commandments He has been doing this work ever since the Garden when He convinced Adam and Eve to 'be Commandment breakers').

3:9

Whoever is

born of God

does not

commit sin

(known, presumptuous, unrepented of transgression of God's Law, especially the Ten Commandments);

for his seed

(Jesus the promised seed, the indwelling Jesus)

remains in him: and

he can not sin

(will not commit known, presumptuous unrepented of sin),

because he is

born of God

(born again).

Here again these are not my words, but the words of Our Savior, who ought to know what He is talking about. Does this mean that the 'believer' cannot or will not ever sin? No! it says that those who abide in Christ, won't sin. The believer who does not abide in Christ, abide in His Crucifixion with Christ, who feeds not on Christ, will not be able to be kept by Christ and will surely fall. Does this mean that then he is totally lost, of course not. Thank God for 'ongoing' justification in which he can confess and repent from this new sin and be forgiven and justified, accounted righteous again thus justified from any continuing transgression of the 'Will of God'. This concept is developed by John in John chapter 15. Yet this Scriptural truth sure does away with the heretical concepts and deceptions that man can't overcome known, presumptuous sin as described in God's Ten Commandments

Thus we have the 'letter of the law', dealing mainly with physical acts, and the 'Spirit of the law', the Holy Spirit, which deals with the 'evil heart of man' which leads to the evil acts of breaking God's Commandments. You see the Gospel includes, make the tree, the heart, good and its fruit, thoughts and acts, will be good and this only happens when Christ dwells in the heart. So we see, that the 'letter of the Law' is fulfilled, kept and loved by the believer who has the 'Spirit of the law' dwelling within.

God bless you all,

Dennis