Do you have to be baptized to go to Heaven?

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem is, it's not what I'm saying, but what has been shown through scripture thus far. It's not my opinion, the Word bears it out.

No, it doesn't bear it out. The Bible does not offer any guarantee that every person that says to Jesus will have access to water for immersion. As I previously indicated, I can can demonstrate realisitc scenarios where such would be the case. The fact is that since there is no guarantee, there is no basis for claiming that baptism is absolutely necessary for savlation.

Actually, thee very first discussion on salvation gives mention to baptism as a necessary element; Acts 2:38.

No, it gives a command to be baptized. It does not indicate that baptism is necessary and that those who don't get baptized will not be saved. To claim that this verse mentions water immersion as a necessary element is nothing but a conjecture on your part.

The reason Paul had to address the issue of salvation to those already saved is because there were some who would teach that they needed to observe the Law as well as Grace. These are mutually exclusive. Paul did not have to address baptism because noone was refuting the neccesity of baptism.

Actually, that motivation would only apply to certain parts of the New Testament. The entire 1st eight chapters of Romans is discussing how Gentiles could be saved (which was a complete mystery in that day). Paul uses this as springboard in Romans as a call to the Gentiles to bring the gospel to the Jewish people. His motivation was different in Romans, than it was in Ephesians 2 and neither case where he is explaining HOW a person is saved, does he ever include any reminder about the necessity of baptism for salvation. If it were necessary for salvation, it would have a much broader discussion than we see in the Scriptures.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Bible is also designed with unbelievers in mind. The Bible is God's message to all of humanity, not just the Church. It designed to point all nonChristians to Christ and to explain in terms all people can comprehend, how to be saved.

So, then, your answer to the question is no they are not saved...if they follow Romans 10 believing the Gospel and proffessing Christ but still do not repent, they are not saved? Is this what you are saying?

What I am saying is, if there is no actual evidence of a change in their life, if they can live, having no compunction about continuing in sin, then they did not follow Romans 10 much less, repent.

[Guest shiloh357]

Ok. This a correct definition of proof texting. I understand that. however, what I am asking is for you to show why it is a weak case. You can't just dismiss it as a weak case by giving a definition of how one "may" or "might" build a weak case. Show it is unsubstantiated. What makes these issues not "like" issues? Are they not all pertaining to remission of sins?

If I want to talk about the concept of Justifcation, don't have to grab a verse from Romans, a verse from James, a verse from Isaiah a verse from John and so forth, and string them together to make a point.

I have my choice of entire passages and chapters on the subject of Justification. In fact, when it comes to salvation, I can find one treatise after another.

A genuine doctrine is developed progressively in the Bible. This is true whether you are talking about Justification, Sanctification, The Deity of Jesus, etc. I don't have to cherry pick a verse from here and there.

Having said that, even when I do verse-to-verse comparisons, I choose verses from different passages that are identical in context and subject matter. Your example of grabbing a verse from Heb 9:22, Mt 26:28, Ac 2:38 is an example of just grabbing verses that do not correlate that are not parallel and forcing them together to support a doctrine. When your point is based on just grabbing individual verses and you have no actually doctrinal treatise in the Bible on the necessity of baptism for salvation, it pretty much torpedoes such a belief as a genuine biblical doctrine.

[bison.78]

Rick: I do not disagree with any of this. what you say is true. You NEED to REPENT in order for Romans 10 to be effective. Is this "adding to the Gospel" also?

Repentance Comes From The Holy Spirit (But Than Again You Knew That I Think)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

quote]

How does this prove that repentance comes from the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is a reprover, yes, but it is man's lot to repent. What is your point?

Why Would One Attempt To Drown The Faithful In Quibbles Over Man's Water Baptism Standing In The Place Of The Lord Jesus Christ's Baptism Into The Regenerative Work Of God The Holy Ghost.

I'm not attempting to drown anyone.... I'm merely stating my position of the role of baptism....if I've caused anyone to stumble I apologize.

bison.78, Who Sent You To Worthy?

Who sent me? Good grief, what am I, a hitman? Again if this discussion is vexing you, I apologize.

Edited March 2, 2008 by bison.78

[eric]

Well I haven't posted anything for a week, but to let this topic go without saying something, would be a dereliction of my christian duty, so tto be brief all I can say that those who believe that water baptism is a necessity for eternal life with Jesus, are either going to the wrong church or none at all. or,listenog to false teachers, or reading the wrong bible,

In short, I endorse everything that has been said by Shiloh 357, EricH, Fresno Joe and any others who are like minded. But then I've been saying the same thing on this board every time the topic has surfaced. Incidentally I was baptised in Christ the moment of my conversion, when the Holy Spirit fell on me, but as a matter of obedience I was water baptised weeks later.

[bison.78]

The problem is, it's not what I'm saying, but what has been shown through scripture thus far. It's not my opinion, the Word bears it out.

No, it doesn't bear it out. The Bible does not offer any guarantee that every person that says to Jesus will have access to water for immersion. As I previously indicated, I can can demonstrate realisitc scenarios where such would be the case. The fact is that since there is no guarantee, there is no basis for claiming that baptism is absolutely necessary for savlation.

Actually, thee very first discussion on salvation gives mention to baptism as a necessary element; Acts 2:38.

No, it gives a command to be baptized. It does not indicate that baptism is necessary and that those who don't get baptized will not be saved. To claim that this verse mentions water immersion as a necessary element is nothing but a conjecture on your part.

The reason Paul had to address the issue of salvation to those already saved is because there were some who would teach that they needed to observe the Law as well as Grace. These are mutually exclusive. Paul did not have to address baptism because noone was refuting the neccesity of baptism.

Actually, that motivation would only apply to certain parts of the New Testament. The entire 1st eight chapters of Romans is discussing how Gentiles could be saved (which was a complete mystery in that day). Paul uses this as springboard in Romans as a call to the Gentiles to bring the gospel to the Jewish people. His motivation was different in Romans, than it was in Ephesians 2 and neither case where he is explaining HOW a person is saved, does he ever include any reminder about the necessity of baptism for salvation. If it were necessary for salvation, it would have a much broader discussion than we see in the Scriptures.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Bible is also designed with unbelievers in mind. The Bible is God's message to all of humanity, not just the Church. It designed to point all nonChristians to Christ and to explain in terms all people can comprehend, how to be saved.

So, then, your answer to the question is no they are not saved...if they follow Romans 10 believing the Gospel and proffessing Christ but still do not repent, they are not saved? Is this what you are saying?

What I am saying is, if there is no actual evidence of a change in their life, if they can live, having no compunction about continuing in sin, then they did not follow Romans 10 much less, repent.

Shiloh, It's been a learning experience debating this issue with you. As you can see from the number of posts I have, I'm new here. Some of your points are valid and may be worth another look. The defense of your doctrinal belief regarding baptism shows you're maturity in the study of God's Word. Although we will probably not see eye to eye on this issue, I want to commend you for your respectability....for if I am wrong, jibes and taunts would only push me further away. I've learned about proof texting( although I still believe my line of reasoning is correct) and now have some new words to add to my vocabulary. If you truly believe my understanding of this issue to be askewed, whisper a prayer to God to open my understanding. I will do the same for you. Prayer never hurt anyone...but a misinterpretation of scripture is a killer.

Thank you and God Bless.

P.S. in response to your scenario of a person in a plane who accepts the Lord, then the plan crashes: For their sakes I hope they land in the ocean!

Edited March 2, 2008 by bison.78

[bison.78]

Richard, please review the post that this definition is pertaining to and if you find it to be erroneous, expose it.

I was simply commenting upon that manner of using the Scriptures, for I have seen it done too many times. My reply had nothing else to do with the thread nor was it related to you per se.

If you would be so kind as to provide me a direct link to the post in question, I would not mind reading through it and perhaps commenting. Ok, I admit it, I am being too lazy to go searching to find the post in question and am taking the lazy way out. However, perhaps you would still be so kind as I am sure you know exactly what post it is. Thank you.

Tsk,tsk,tsk....Richard. Proverbs 6:6

Peace and Grace

[Richard_yaash]

Tsk,tsk,tsk....Richard. Proverbs 6:6

Peace and Grace

Thank you Bison.78 for that timely reminder. I stand corrected <slight bow of respectful acknowledgement>.