Do you have to be baptized to go to Heaven?

[exrockstar]

Likewise Philip, is talking to the eunuch who professes a firm unwavering belief that Jesus is the son of God and he immediately stops because there is water near by.

well of coarse....thats because they were still uneducated about the significance about water baptism or more importantly a spiritual baptism.

Paul was the one that enlightened them all. You did know that Paul constantly whipped the apostles in shape right? and he

didnt even walk with Jesus.

So you really do believe that some of scripture is wrong? Of course it couldn't be your understanding of scripture. That couldn't possibly be wrong. Yes you must be correct it is Peter and Phillip who got it wrong.

Oye vay

K.D.

you must not read.

the apostles were casting lots in Acts 1.

"26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."

so does your church cast lots? no im sure it does not.

so here are the apostles who just met God in the flesh and they do what? cast lots.

so because its in scripture does that mean your church has a "casting lots" night?

im sure it does....

have fun

[Guest shiloh357]

very interesting topic indeed.

my question is, if baptism is biblical, why would any christian kick against it? Especially when there is much more evidence supporting the neccesity of baptism than the contrary.

If you take the time to notice the responses, no one is kicking against baptism, and no one is saying that it is not necessary. Where we disagree is over what we believe baptism is necessary for. Believing baptism is necssary is one thing. Believing it is necessary for salvation is something else. Just because we do not believe baptism to be essential to one's salvation does not mean we are "kicking against."

Shiloh,

What is baptism necessary for?

Yes I had the same question. In one breath he says it is necessary according to scripture but then contradicts himself by saying it is not necessary. Which is it

It is necessary bccause Jesus commanded it. It is not necessary for salvation as the Bible does not teach baptism is required for one to receive eternal life. Eternal life is Jesus and comes only when we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Salvation is Jesus + Zero. Anyone who says otherwise is promoting a false gospel.

[Guest shiloh357]

First off, I don't reject Christ's deity. I reject the teachings of the Trinity.

Doesn't matter. You said that Jesus is "A" god. The Bible does not teach that Jesus is "A" god. The Bible teaches that Jesus is 100% Almighty AND we have that testimony from Jesus Himself. To teach otherwise is to reject the Deity of Jesus. Jesus is not "A" deity. He is fully God and that is the ONLY correct, biblical and Christian viewpoint that you can have. If you veer from it, you are leaving biblical doctrine, pure and simple.

Second, I am accused of "false teachings", but in reading your belief, along with others', you believe that we are saved only by grace through faith and the rest of the bible is by our choice whether to follow it or not. When we say things like baptism, attending church, the Lord's Supper, etc. are not essential then we are making it our choice.

Wrong. No one said that. Just because we don't follow your ubibliical teachings that works are required for salvation, does not mean that we feel that God's commandments are just a matter of choice. You seem to think one-dimensionally about obedience. I don't obey to get saved or to maintain salvation. I obey solely because God give commandments and I love Him enough to obey. Your obedience is as a slave who hopes to earn a shred of mercy. You live, hoping you have done enough to merit heaven. I have passed from death into life, and I already have eternal life, today. I am not trying stay saved. Jesus is the only one who can keep me saved. My works are out of gratitude for the free gift of grace, not

Many people agree that baptism is scriptural and just as many believe we can get to heaven without it. I agree that it is not baptism that saves us, but it is part of God's plan of salvation for man.

That is a contradiction. Either Jesus saves us or something else does. God does not share His glory.

Everything written for man by God in the bible is essential to our salvation.

Wrong. The Sabbath was given by God. Is the Sabbath essential to salvation? Does someone have to speak in tongues to be saved? Does someone have to tithe to be saved? I can find tons things that are not "essential" to salvation but are essential to Christian living and obedience as an outworking of salvation. There is a difference between believing that it is necessary to live in obedience and believing that obediece is necessary for salvation.

Is it "false teaching" to believe that God requires us to follow and uphold ALL of the scriptures in the NT?

No, it is false teaching to take things that are not meant as a requirement for salvation and add them to the gospel, which is what you are doing. You are promoting a false gospel.

When we say that we baptism is scriptural, but is not needed for salvation then we take away from its impact.

No, we are placing into the proper biblical perspective that Bible has for it.

So, now we have people who believe they can go to heaven without baptism even though Jesus commanded and taught it himself. Not only do I believe in the Deity of Jesus, but I also believe in and follow his commandments and teachings.

The problem is that you do not obey His commandments property, and no, by calling Jesus "a" god, you are rejecting His Deity.

Everything that is written for us from Matthew to Revelation is for our reproof, correction, and instruction in how to be right before God.

Yes, but not everything is for our salvation.

So, the doctrine of baptism is also instruction on how to be right before God. Since the doctrine of baptism is out of the mouth of God it is also something that we live by. We can't leave it out by choice.

No one is leaving it out. For my part, I have been baptized, but I did not do it as means of locking in my salvation. I was baptized out of loving gratitude for the salvation I have already recieved.

Many people believe that all baptism does is get us wet, but what does scripture say it is for?

No, we do not say that all it does is get us wet. That is yet another misconstruction of our position. Part of your problem, cardcaptor, is that you don't know how to correctly frame your opponents' arguments. You have decided on your own why you think we object to your false teachings and then you argue with us on the basis of those imaginary objections.

[Guest shiloh357]

Those who are baptized into Jesus are freed from their sins. So why wouldn't we want to be baptized to be freed from our sins?

Baptism is not the means we are freed from sin. We are freed from sin by the finished work of Christ on the cross, alone. Salvation is Jesus plus nothing.

On top of all of that Jesus Christ our Lord commanded baptism. He commanded that the Apostles go into all the world and preach the gospel baptizing them saying that all that believe and are baptized will be saved?

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

He commanded the doctrine of baptism and told the Apostles to teach the world to observe ALL things he commanded.

Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I believe what this scripture says in that if I believe and am baptized I all be saved.

Which only highlights the weakness of your hermeneutics.

[bison.78]

very interesting topic indeed.

my question is, if baptism is biblical, why would any christian kick against it? Especially when there is much more evidence supporting the neccesity of baptism than the contrary.

If you take the time to notice the responses, no one is kicking against baptism, and no one is saying that it is not necessary. Where we disagree is over what we believe baptism is necessary for. Believing baptism is necssary is one thing. Believing it is necessary for salvation is something else. Just because we do not believe baptism to be essential to one's salvation does not mean we are "kicking against."

Shiloh,

What is baptism necessary for?

Yes I had the same question. In one breath he says it is necessary according to scripture but then contradicts himself by saying it is not necessary. Which is it

It is necessary bccause Jesus commanded it. It is not necessary for salvation as the Bible does not teach baptism is required for one to receive eternal life. Eternal life is Jesus and comes only when we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Salvation is Jesus + Zero. Anyone who says otherwise is promoting a false gospel.

Yes Shiloh, we are agreed on the "why" baptism is neccesary. As was previously noted it is a direct command from Christ and those who heard Him. But the question at hand is what necessitates baptism? another words what makes baptism unavoidable (for that is the definition of the word) for a christian?

EricH answered earlier that baptism is necessary as a step of obedience and discipleship. So, taking this view into consideration, I am not a disciple until I am baptized, correct?

Your arguments are persuasive, but please fortify your rebuttal with scripture. I would like to know what the answers you are giving are predicated upon.

Peace

[bison.78]

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Notice that this scripture does not say he the believeth and is baptized not shall be damned. How can one explain that? Doesn't it make sense that Christ would be very specific if both were required for salvation?

No disrespect, but this to me seems to be common sense....if you don't believe, you won't be baptized.

None taken. We are talking about baptism. One can believe and not be baptised and still go to heaven. Baptism without faith is a work and can not save. Faith without baptism does save.

Is faith without Baptism Faith or lip service?

James 2:17

[Guest shiloh357]

According to you, this is false teaching right here, but let's look at what scripture says about what baptism really does for us.

Romans 6:3-7 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

You say that baptism is not the means we are freed from sin, but here in Romans it says that we are baptized into Christ's death, planted together in the likeness of his death, our old man is crucified with him, and being dead with Christ we are freed from sin.

The problem with this is you are working from the assumption that "baptism" means "immersion in water." Your assumption is wrong. Baptism into Christ is not water immersion.

Baptism, as I stated earlier, is not a religious word. It simply means "immersion" When I dunk a cookie in milk, that is baptism. When I am "immersed" in a good book, that is baptism. Baptism does not define either the object being immersed, or the element the object is immersed into. When I put dirty dishes in a sink of soapy water, that is a baptism.

Furthermore, the word baptism (baptizmo) can be used in a both both to refer to the ritual of Christian immersion into water, and it can be used in a spiritual sense to refer to our position in Christ.

Being "baptized" (immersed) into Christ is just another way of referring to what we call "positional justification" where are taken out of Adam and placed into Christ. Positional justicification is the the theme of Romans 6, and Paul uses the term baptism in a spiritual sense, referring to being placed into Christ, not as a reference to the ritual of water immersion. We are "immersed" into Christ. We are in Him, and He is in us.

What I said, is that water immersion is not the means we are freed from sin. Your problem is that you are too one-dimensional in your understanding of the different ways the word "baptism" is used.

If you don't believe that one then here is another one -

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Again, you are assumintg that water immersion is meant here, but that is not the case. Paul is giving a spiritual understanding of both circumcision and baptism, since they both correleate. In neither case is Paul attributing salvation to either custom. Baptism is the corollary to the OT ritual cirucmcision. Abraham was saved apart from circumcision. Circumcision was an act of obedient faith in response to have been justified by faith. Abraham was not justified by both faith and circumcsicion. He was justified 25 years prior to being circumcised. Likewise, baptism is an act of obedient faith in response to the salvation already received. It is not part of the process of being saved. Baptism in and of itself does not bring remission of sins, and the likes of Peter and Paul would be horrified to learn people have twisted the pure gospel they presented into the horrible monster of works-based salvation that people like you have created.

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes Shiloh, we are agreed on the "why" baptism is neccesary. As was previously noted it is a direct command from Christ and those who heard Him. But the question at hand is what necessitates baptism? another words what makes baptism unavoidable (for that is the definition of the word) for a christian?

It is unavoidable for the simple reason that God commands it. It is not a means of attaining or maintaining salvation.

EricH answered earlier that baptism is necessary as a step of obedience and discipleship. So, taking this view into consideration, I am not a disciple until I am baptized, correct?

That would depend on whether or not you are using "disciple" as equivolent to "Christian." Even then, water immersion does not "make" you a disciple. Being a disciple is an attitude that springs from a desire to be obedient. It is the willingness to be obedient that makes one a disciple, not the specific act.

Your arguments are persuasive, but please fortify your rebuttal with scripture.

I use the same Scriptures that are being presented to prove that baptism is necessary for salvation. I simply apply proper hermeneutics to them.

[Guest]

Your arguments are persuasive, but please fortify your rebuttal with scripture.

I use the same Scriptures that are being presented to prove that baptism is necessary for salvation. I simply apply proper hermeneutics to them.

Our LORD Jesus Christ (God) Baptizes In The Holy Ghost (God) And He Always Does The Will Of His Farther (God)

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" Luke 3:16

The Gift Of God's Grace

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Even Saving Belief In The LORD Jesus Christ

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Who Draws Us With His Love

"The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3

Because We Are His Joy

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

Saves Us

Why Would Any Believer Want To Splash Cold Water On The Blood That Redeems....

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Colossians 1:20-23

Just Puzzles Me To No End But Then Again I Know Little Except Jesus Christ And Him Crucified And My Pride Is Crushed And My Soul Sings Out - Jesus I Love You So

Jesus Lion Of Judah

Master Come Quickly

Your City Is Surrounded

Your Children Are In Harms Way

You Holy Name Is Slandered

Your People Cry Out

Hosanna My Lord

Tears My God

Save Now

Amen

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest Biblicist]

The problem with this is you are working from the assumption that "baptism" means "immersion in water." Your assumption is wrong. Baptism into Christ is not water immersion.

Baptism, as I stated earlier, is not a religious word. It simply means "immersion" When I dunk a cookie in milk, that is baptism. When I am "immersed" in a good book, that is baptism. Baptism does not define either the object being immersed, or the element the object is immersed into. When I put dirty dishes in a sink of soapy water, that is a baptism.

Furthermore, the word baptism (baptizmo) can be used in a both both to refer to the ritual of Christian immersion into water, and it can be used in a spiritual sense to refer to our position in Christ.

Shiloh spot on Brother to everything you have said, concerning Baptism.

Excuse me while I go "baptize" my Oreo's in milk!