Atheists

[caughtinside]

I'm sure the majority of atheists have spent a lot of time pondering God.

I would think this is not true. I think they just spend an awful lot of time trying to disprove him, (or fighting him) rather than pondering the possibility of his existance.

artsylady, my experience has shown otherwise. You paint with a broad brush. Since I started in on this thread, I've gone through some of the other threads here and I can see that you have a vendetta against non-believers. So what is there to discuss?

I want to point out a double-standard, and that is that you say you can't possibly imagine how someone could believe Mohammed was a prophet, and you list various reasons--and yet when others take exactly the same position regarding what you believe you write them off, en masse, as "hard-hearted."

[Guest]

I would think this is not true. I think they just spend an awful lot of time trying to disprove him, (or fighting him) rather than pondering the possibility of his existence.

Au Contraire, atheists have probably spent more time thinking about God than you ever have.

Thinking?

"Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain." Psalms 127:1

Pretty Cool Huh!

About God

His Book The Bible Is Supernatural

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21

And God Is Supernatural, He Can Only Be Known Supernaturally

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Corinthians 4:6

And A Man Will Only See God If He Is Born Again With Supernatural Eyes

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" John 3:3

And Thinking And Thinking About God To Deny Him Does Not Help One To See

"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" 1 Corinthians 2:14

Nor Does Thinking Up Reasons To Deny All Knowledge Of God

"Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways. What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?" Job 21:14-15

And Polishing Up Ways Of Mocking God

"Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?" Psalms 12:4

Gain The Truth About God

".... We are lords; we will come no more unto thee?" Jeremiah 2:31

And Belief In God

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

See Jesus And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[caughtinside]

Here is that subjectivity again. In fact, I know several atheists who wanted to believe, and wished they could, but ... well they didn't.

[artsylady]

artsylady, my experience has shown otherwise.

I do base my opinion on experience as well. And yes, it is a broad brush. I'm talking atheists here, not agnositics.

Since I started in on this thread, I've gone through some of the other threads here and I can see that you have a vendetta against non-believers. So what is there to discuss?

Huh? Can you explain why you say 'vendetta'? First time I've ever been accused of that.

I want to point out a double-standard, and that is that you say you can't possibly imagine how someone could believe Mohammed was a prophet, and you list various reasons--and yet when others take exactly the same position regarding what you believe you write them off, en masse, as "hard-hearted."

The reasons for not accepting Mohammed and not accepting Christ do not even compare. I'm sorry but I don't have a lot of time to discuss things right now. Sorry if it seems I'm being short.

[caughtinside]

artsylady, my experience has shown otherwise.

I do base my opinion on experience as well. And yes, it is a broad brush. I'm talking atheists here, not agnositics.

Well I guess it's a battle of the anecdotes. I think it's possible there is some greater power, but not probable. So I suppose I might get pidgeon-holed as a "soft atheist". Not that I was taking your comment personally, I just find it ... curious. Maybe a bit simplistic.

Since I started in on this thread, I've gone through some of the other threads here and I can see that you have a vendetta against non-believers. So what is there to discuss?

Huh? Can you explain why you say 'vendetta'? First time I've ever been accused of that.

Just going by the threads you've begun, like asking atheists if they think they believe they're too smart to believe in God, if they believe they're hard-hearted (and lumping them together as hard-hearted), etc. And your signature quotes. Is vendetta too strong a word? Perhaps. I retract it.

I want to point out a double-standard, and that is that you say you can't possibly imagine how someone could believe Mohammed was a prophet, and you list various reasons--and yet when others take exactly the same position regarding what you believe you write them off, en masse, as "hard-hearted."

The reasons for not accepting Mohammed and not accepting Christ do not even compare. I'm sorry but I don't have a lot of time to discuss things right now. Sorry if it seems I'm being short.

Your bias is showing. But no, you don't seem short. It was just of many examples I could have used. There are soooo many differing views out there, and soooo many differing personalities, what's the value in broad-brush judgments on "the other guys'" character?

As I said in an earlier post, there was at least one well thought-out response in your conspiracy thread, one which highlights some of the reasons non-Christians aren't convinced by the Bible. Those comments don't need to convince you to persuade you that people with viewpoints different than your own might not all be hard-hearted, or devoting all their "thinking" time to finding excuses not to believe what you believe.

[artsylady]

Well I guess it's a battle of the anecdotes.

As are yours.

I think it's possible there is some greater power, but not probable. So I suppose I might get pidgeon-holed as a "soft atheist". Not that I was taking your comment personally, I just find it ... curious. Maybe a bit simplistic.

I was beginning to believe you were more of an athiest than an agnostic actually. That would have been my next question but you've already answered.

Since I started in on this thread, I've gone through some of the other threads here and I can see that you have a vendetta against non-believers. So what is there to discuss?

Huh? Can you explain why you say 'vendetta'? First time I've ever been accused of that.

Just going by the threads you've begun, like asking atheists if they think they believe they're too smart to believe in God, if they believe they're hard-hearted (and lumping them together as hard-hearted), etc. And your signature quotes. Is vendetta too strong a word? Perhaps. I retract it.

A vendetta would mean that I feel the need to get back at them for something, wouldn't it? I feel no need for this. Atheists have never done anything to me. I feel sorry for atheists actually and am here only because of love for people. I press them to really examine their motives and their hearts. I have to ask, does hard-hearted sound like an insult to you? Had you been a Christian at one time?

I

want to point out a double-standard, and that is that you say you can't possibly imagine how someone could believe Mohammed was a prophet, and you list various reasons--and yet when others take exactly the same position regarding what you believe you write them off, en masse, as "hard-hearted."

The reasons for not accepting Mohammed and not accepting Christ do not even compare. I'm sorry but I don't have a lot of time to discuss things right now. Sorry if it seems I'm being short.

Your bias is showing. But no, you don't seem short. It was just of many examples I could have used. There are soooo many differing views out there, and soooo many differing personalities, what's the value in broad-brush judgments on "the other guys'" character?

I don't see it as a double standard at all nor do I see it as bias. I see it as obvious. Jesus had miracles, claimed to be the son of God, was preceeded by hundreds of prophesies and more than 30 writers who all spoke of the same God and went to death willingly with reports of a ressurection and many miracles. What did Mohammed have? He came along and called Jesus a liar and taught barbarianism and killing and control, 500 years after Christ. We can delve into these more deeply if you feel the need.

As I said in an earlier post, there was at least one well thought-out response in your conspiracy thread, one which highlights some of the reasons non-Christians aren't convinced by the Bible. Those comments don't need to convince you to persuade you that people with viewpoints different than your own might not all be hard-hearted, or devoting all their "thinking" time to finding excuses not to believe what you believe.

Why don't we just debate over there? You can copy and past the post you believe was good.

I believe I had responded to every point made by the other poster but can try it again.

[artsylady]

Au contraire, athiests have probably spent more time thinking about God than you ever have.

Does this make sense to you?

"While it may be true that the mysteries of the universe far outweigh the KNOWNS, I still conclude God does not exist."

[pamiam]

What happened to Ateam? Got things going and disappeared? I'd like to hear more from him. I tend to think that those who appear to be "hard-hearted" are either afraid or very wounded. We all see the world through eyes that reflect our lump of experiences and conclusions, do we not? There seems to be an element of pride in agnostic/atheistic thinking as well, and I say that from my own experiences. For instance, if my son hadn't gone to UC Irvine and been exposed to all those so-called brilliant professors, I'd bet he wouldn't be so set against what he now sees as simple-minded Christians. And there are certainly enough simple-minded Christians to reinforce his mindset.

I like what Ravi Zacharias asks: Do you believe in anything? Do you believe what Hitler did was morally good or bad? If bad, then you have posited a moral law. If you posit a moral law, you posit a moral lawgiver. Otherwise, it's all just up to us to decide what is good or evil. Oops, I guess I have to believe in a moral lawgiver, because I somehow KNOW intuitively that Hitler was an evil man.

It is also necessary to study and know something about the Bible. I came to believe it was the inspired word of God by study with a Jehovah Witness. I was always just so in my head, had to understand everything, and when it finally got through to me that all these prophecies in the Old Testament actually were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ, I lost my intellectual basis for doubt. It took some time and effort on my part, though, to reach that point. Just standing on, "Well, I just believe what I believe," doesn't cut it. There's not much to respect about an opinion not reached with honest effort.

[caughtinside]

Well I guess it's a battle of the anecdotes.

As are yours.

Yep, that's what makes it a 'battle of the anecdotes.'

I think it's possible there is some greater power, but not probable. So I suppose I might get pidgeon-holed as a "soft atheist". Not that I was taking your comment personally, I just find it ... curious. Maybe a bit simplistic.

I was beginning to believe you were more of an athiest than an agnostic actually. That would have been my next question but you've already answered.

More atheist than agnostic, more agnostic than atheist, hmmm, no I consider myself more agnostic than atheist.

A vendetta would mean that I feel the need to get back at them for something, wouldn't it? I feel no need for this. Atheists have never done anything to me. I feel sorry for atheists actually and am here only because of love for people. I press them to really examine their motives and their hearts. I have to ask, does hard-hearted sound like an insult to you? Had you been a Christian at one time?

Bad choice of words on my part. I retract it, again. I'll go with... a certain slant. I remember in a movie called "Election", Matthew Brodderick's character, a high school teacher, said that he felt sorry for another character. And then later in the movie, the other character said she felt sorry for him. That sums it up quite nicely. Mind-bogglingly fascinating!

"Hard-hearted" is derogatory, yes. You don't think so? It has its uses, but never in a flattering way, and across the boards, broad-brush, to everyone who believes differently? I have been Christian, or at least I desired to, strove to. But enough about me.

I don't see it as a double standard at all nor do I see it as bias. I see it as obvious. Jesus had miracles, claimed to be the son of God, was preceeded by hundreds of prophesies and more than 30 writers who all spoke of the same God and went to death willingly with reports of a ressurection and many miracles. What did Mohammed have? He came along and called Jesus a liar and taught barbarianism and killing and control, 500 years after Christ. We can delve into these more deeply if you feel the need.

Obvious to you. Probably incredibly obvious, right?

Why don't we just debate over there? You can copy and past the post you believe was good.

I believe I had responded to every point made by the other poster but can try it again.

Why? What is there to debate? As I was careful to make clear, my point wasn't that she was correct, but simply that it was evidence that someone could have a reasonable explanation besides yours. You still seem to want to debate the points, on who is correct, but that's really entirely beside my point. Honestly, lady, I appreciate your conviction, but it seems like you're so certain of your position that you can't imagine someone disagreeing with you! Unless of course they're hard-hearted, or carry some other defect.

Take care, I bow out of this conversation.

[caughtinside]

There's not much to respect about an opinion not reached with honest effort.

Now there's something we can all agree on!!!

Edited March 14, 2008 by caughtinside