What Christians Believe

[Kansasdad]

(Matt. 16:18) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Here we see that the Gates of hell will not prevail against "IT" the "IT" is Gods Church. So we need to understand what is Gods church.

All this states is that God will preserve His church. It does not specify if Jesus is talking about a local gathering, or the universal gathering of all believers. The burden is on you to prove from the scriptures which is being talked about (since you are making the claim).

(1 Tim. 3:15). But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. This verse does not make sense if "Church" is an invisible spiritual connection of all believers.

Timothy was actually a letter addressed to local churches in Ephesus. So one would guess that these are instructions on how to administer local churches, not a universal one. So I see no evidence that this is a specific denomination or world-wide oranization

Eph. 3:9 And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things: 10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,

Gods Church, as set up by Jesus has a structure to it. And it is this church build on top of the structure given to us by Jesus through the Apostles and Prophets that is the pillar and ground of the truth.

Agree that God uses the church to spread the gospel. The context of Ephesians 3 is actually Paul's ministry to the gentiles. Namely that the gentiles are now "co-heirs" with the Jews (3:1-7). The only structure mentioned in scripture is for the selection of elders in local bodies. Any other structure you are implying here is not evident in the text and would require you to read it in. it does not say that the church is what builds on the foundation.

John, 16: 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall show you. Notice here Jesus is talking to the Apostles. The Spirit will guide the Apostles, the very foundation that God builds his Church Upon using Jesus as their cornerstone, and the Holy Spirit as their guide.

Too many people try to make themselves Gods church. They are part of the Church but they are not the Church.

Church is not mentioned here. only his disciples and later by extention all who come after. you are reading in here. All believers make up the church. you have not provided any evidence to the contrary.

Acts Of Apostles 20:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

No argument that God has placed overseeres over local churchs (which is what Acts 20 is referencing in Ephesus). No mention that they are to replace scripture. None of the passage you have provided have "made your point" you are required to read into them. thus you claim that you are standing on scripture is not completely true. because scripture alone does not make your case. you are required to appeal to your own version of history, and to tradition to complete your case.

Eric you always approach everything with an argumentative point of view. The problem is you are making assumptions to the conclusions I have drawn. My only point in the scripture above is that God gives a promise to his church and and it is through the church we find the promise of God to protect his truth.

Until we have established this, it does no good to then discuss exactly what God means by church. You are correct the scriptures I have given do not address this issue. You can't talk about point B when you have not even looked at point A first.

So stop jumping to conclusions and lets deal with one thing at a time.

1 Tim. 3:15). But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth

Does this or does this not say the church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth?

We can then search scripture as to what is this church of the living God. In fact did I not say by this statement it is imperative that we have a good understanding of what God means by his church?

Many of you are saying that every individual with scripture in hand can rest on the assurance that they are being led by the Holy Spirit. Yet this has led to polar opposite interpretations. So obviously for some this has not worked so well. Yet the justification for their assurances is exactly the same. When you find this kind of confusion you know man had a hand in screwing it up and we darn well better let go of our pride and search scripture with an open mind and be willing to admit we got something wrong.

[EricH]

Eric you always approach everything with an argumentative point of view. The problem is you are making assumptions to the conclusions I have drawn. My only point in the scripture above is that God gives a promise to his church and and it is through the church we find the promise of God to protect his truth.

And this is where we disagree. God in no place in scripture has stated that the truth of His word will be protected by the church. The passages you mentioned simply do not support that contention. it is not a matter of arguing for arguing sake. it is a matter that you have not supported your postion with the scriptures you chose. God did say that the truth of the Gospel would be spread by the church (yet to be defined in this discussion). But he did not state that the church would be the sole protector of truth.

[Kansasdad]

Eric you always approach everything with an argumentative point of view. The problem is you are making assumptions to the conclusions I have drawn. My only point in the scripture above is that God gives a promise to his church and and it is through the church we find the promise of God to protect his truth.

And this is where we disagree. God in no place in scripture has stated that the truth of His word will be protected by the church. The passages you mentioned simply do not support that contention. it is not a matter of arguing for arguing sake. it is a matter that you have not supported your postion with the scriptures you chose. God did say that the truth of the Gospel would be spread by the church (yet to be defined in this discussion). But he did not state that the church would be the sole protector of truth.

1 Tim. 3:15). But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth

Does this or does this not say the church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth?

You can try to deny this as much as you want but it says what it says. It does not say scripture is the pillar and ground of truth. It does say scripture is truth, but that is not the same thing. How can you possible deny what is so plainly stated in scripture. The CHURCH of the Living God is the pillar and ground of truth. This does not just relegate the church to spreading the gospel. How do you equate pillar and ground or Bulwark to spreading the Gospel. That is some stretch on words you are trying to suggest.

We can't just dismiss scripture because we don't like what it says, and we can't try and change the meaning to something we find more pleasant either.

[Guest Biblicist]

In truth, it is the Lord God Almighty who preserves His word. Because His Word is Jesus Christ.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

[OneLight]

Church 1577

• 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
  
  • a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
    
  • b) the assembly of the Israelites
    
  • c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
    
  • d) in a Christian sense
    
    • 1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
      
    • 2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
      
    • 3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
      
    • 4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
      
    • 5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
      

Forgot to add Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

[Kansasdad]

In truth, it is the Lord God Almighty who preserves His word. Because His Word is Jesus Christ.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Actually I agree with this completely. It is through God that we have any protection at all. It is the Holy Spirit that is doing the protecting, not us humans. The Church is simply Gods chosen tool. God works through the church for this function. If we claim this isn't possible then we are saying it isn't possible for God to keep his promise. I agree that Jesus is the word and scripture is our written record of truth, But that is not the same thing as protecting the truth.

God Bless,

K.D.

[Kansasdad]

Church 1577

• 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
  
  • a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
    
  • b) the assembly of the Israelites
    
  • c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
    
  • d) in a Christian sense
    
    • 1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
      
    • 2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
      
    • 3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
      
    • 4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
      
    • 5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
      

Forgot to add Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

I think it is much more important to find Gods definition of his church as opposed to our human definition as posted above.

Lets find all the scripture we can that describes Gods church, how it functioned, and how it was able to continue.

God Bless,

K.D.

[EricH]

Eric you always approach everything with an argumentative point of view. The problem is you are making assumptions to the conclusions I have drawn. My only point in the scripture above is that God gives a promise to his church and and it is through the church we find the promise of God to protect his truth.

And this is where we disagree. God in no place in scripture has stated that the truth of His word will be protected by the church. The passages you mentioned simply do not support that contention. it is not a matter of arguing for arguing sake. it is a matter that you have not supported your postion with the scriptures you chose. God did say that the truth of the Gospel would be spread by the church (yet to be defined in this discussion). But he did not state that the church would be the sole protector of truth.

1 Tim. 3:15). But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth

Does this or does this not say the church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth?

You can try to deny this as much as you want but it says what it says. It does not say scripture is the pillar and ground of truth. It does say scripture is truth, but that is not the same thing. How can you possible deny what is so plainly stated in scripture. The CHURCH of the Living God is the pillar and ground of truth. This does not just relegate the church to spreading the gospel. How do you equate pillar and ground or Bulwark to spreading the Gospel. That is some stretch on words you are trying to suggest.

We can't just dismiss scripture because we don't like what it says, and we can't try and change the meaning to something we find more pleasant either.

Yes it does say that. An how did Paul use the word truth in his writings? What did Paul mean when he used the word truth? How would we determine how Paul used the word truth? It is not enough to find a word then apply our meaning to that word. We must determine how the author used it. If we apply our meaning to the word, that is called "reading into a passage".

To determine what is meant by Paul here we would need to see how he used the word in this book, then look at his other writings. What did you find when you did that?

[EricH]

Then, once you have done that you would need to see how Paul used the word church and what he meant by that. Only then could you come up with the correct meaning

[EricH]

Then you would need to understand how Pillars and foundations functioned in the culture Paul was writing from. What did you find when you did that?

My point is that simply quoting a verse we think supports our position is not sufficient. We need to understand word meanings, context, and historical backgrounds. Event when that is done we must rub our findings for that particular passage up against what the remainder of scripture teaches.

Your position seems to be that the church (not defined here yet) is the basis or source of truth. That is not supported by 1 Timothy 3:15. Pillars and foundations are not sources, they are supports. The church was designed to support the truth as revealed in scripture. That is the entire tone of 1 Timothy. that the local church should conduct itself in such a way that it supports revealed truth.