Can believers be un-converted?

[Guest LadyC]

Hi Angelique,

To answer your question. I think so. There are many who would reference a verse that implies 'no man can pluck us out of God's hand'....and I believe that. But there are also scriptures saying we have to 'make sure our salvation' or others that imply that someone who has received the Holy Ghost can fall away. I choose to not ignore either Scriptures.

I think salvation is a gift, but I think this gift can be given back. I think it is a conscious decision to reject Christ and choose the World, after the point of salvation. To me it seems a rather idiotic decision....but I do not doubt that some make it.

so if God is all knowing (PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE)...why would he give you salvation just so you can return it?

He shouldnt give it to you in the first place. Saves you your time and God an embarrassment.

because God is faithful to His promise that all who call upon Him will be saved... even the ones whom He knows will later reject Him in favor of their old life.

[mrs]

because God is faithful to His promise that all who call upon Him will be saved... even the ones whom He knows will later reject Him in favor of their old life.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. It says ' and i give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish' ...... oh wait we have to add the condition 'they will perish if they change their minds'.

It seems to me that a lot of the confusion over losing salvation stems from attributing the obtaining and keeping of it to the human - instead of to God Himself.

Romans 8:28- to the end of the chapter makes it pretty clear that its God who does the work of salvation and the work of keeping that person as His sanctified child forever. And to those who say this will cause people to go and sin, Paul already addressed that arguement specifically in Romans 6 and 7.

What we see is the awesome truth that God calls someone, redeems them and saves them, indwells them by the Holy Spirit, and begins the never-ending process of making them more like His Son. They have a new nature, a new heart and new desires. This work was started, is continuing, and will be completed by the determined will of God Himself and no one can go against him. ' Nothing shall be able to seperate us from the love of Christ...'

[Guest LadyC]

IMO the only confusion comes in when large chunks of scripture are totally disregarded because they don't fit with the feel good theory.

[exrockstar]

Hi Angelique,

To answer your question. I think so. There are many who would reference a verse that implies 'no man can pluck us out of God's hand'....and I believe that. But there are also scriptures saying we have to 'make sure our salvation' or others that imply that someone who has received the Holy Ghost can fall away. I choose to not ignore either Scriptures.

I think salvation is a gift, but I think this gift can be given back. I think it is a conscious decision to reject Christ and choose the World, after the point of salvation. To me it seems a rather idiotic decision....but I do not doubt that some make it.

so if God is all knowing (PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE)...why would he give you salvation just so you can return it?

He shouldnt give it to you in the first place. Saves you your time and God an embarrassment.

because God is faithful to His promise that all who call upon Him will be saved... even the ones whom He knows will later reject Him in favor of their old life.

that's not a promise. thats a game of hot potato with salvation.

IMO the only confusion comes in when large chunks of scripture are totally disregarded because they don't fit with the feel good theory.

like the "dogs return to their own vomit." the scripture has to do with the judaizers (preached a different gospel) but oh do people like to say that it's the average person

going back into the world.

[mrs]

IMO the only confusion comes in when large chunks of scripture are totally disregarded because they don't fit with the feel good theory.

It is no feel- good theory; it is actually just a different view of exactly Who God is and what He does.

The teaching of OSAS does not disregard Scripture rather it teaches the sovereignty of God.

[exrockstar]

IMO the only confusion comes in when large chunks of scripture are totally disregarded because they don't fit with the feel good theory.

It is no feel- good theory; it is actually just a different view of exactly Who God is and what He does.

The teaching of OSAS does not disregard Scripture rather it teaches the sovereignty of God.

oh wow.

[Guest LadyC]

actually, the non-osas is scriptural. and it absolutely and irrevocably demonstrates God's sovereignty. i listed previously entire passages and even chapters that would have to be disregarded to fit the other doctrine.

[Mudcat]

Hi exrockstar,

that's not a promise. thats a game of hot potato with salvation.

I don't think so. God promises to save us, as long as we want to be saved.

I think ultimately if we decide we want to pursue a relationship with our Saviour, God will honor that decision...despite our mistakes.

If we later decide we don't want anything to do with our Saviour and want to reject his gift of Salvation, he will honor that too.

Heaven is for people who want to be with Christ, not those who don't.

[exrockstar]

that is the problem i have with the OSAS doctrine... it has to ignore so, so many things in scripture, including entire passages (john 15: 4-11) and chapters! (romans 1, romans 11)

LadyC,

I looked at scriptures you said supported your point of view.

Youre using John 15:4-11 to support your gospel of unsalvation

"4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.

Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. "

reread the passages closely a few times. there isn't an unsalvation issue here.

It's just staying to remain in Him or be cut.

Now, remember the story of Moses and how he spoke to the people? At the end of

the journey before entering the promiseland, Moses struck the rock (Numbers 20:11). God told him to him

to speak the rock (Numb 20:8).

God told Moses he could not enter the promise land and it was so.

Now....Moses was cut from the vine.

No where in the John passage is unsalvation.

You see "cut and burned" and you automaticaly see hell.

Moses was cut from the group and did not enter along with the others.

Moses was cut.

This is the same faith we have as Christians. Believe it or not but God will cut your life short if

you do more damage than good. He will "cut you" but it does not mean you're going to hell.

[stacey c]

What about the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins in Mathew 25 1-13. The virgins represent those who have been washed clean. Only half of them watched for the Bridegroom and kept their lamps full. In verse 12 we see where the Bridegroom stated "Verily I say unto you I know you not." We also can't forget in John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. " v.28 "And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." V.29 "My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them ouy of my Father's hand." Clearly from v. 27 we can see that Jesus is refering to the sheep who FOLLOW HIM. And let's not forget God is not a pushy, forceful God. His voice is a still, small voice, He doesn't push His way into anyones lives who doesn't want him.