Can believers be un-converted?

[exrockstar]

i think some members are getting on the defensive because we are providing scripture that

ensures us eternal salvation.

The entire idea of "giving salvation back" is no where in the bible.

Salvation rejection? lol

[exrockstar]

If you want assurance of salvation, you must be able to examine yourself and see if you are in the faith. What appeared to you to be totally redundant is the absolute truth you are missing in your answer. If you have not (1.) repented of sin and (2.) walk in the light of Christ and (3.) forgive all those who trespasses against you, you will not have assurance of salvation because you are probably not even going to be saved. If you are harboring resentment toward others, or some secret sin, the Holy Spirit will continue to convict you of sin until you either repent or completely drown out that still small voice of God.

i think the stickler that many here have if this idea of salvation being based on what you do.

IT IS NOT.

Your 1, 2 and 3 are EXPECTATIONS but they are not salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that

we should walk in them.

The apostles didn't tell all non-believers to do 1, 2 and 3 and they are saved. Christ didnt even tell His

followers to do 1, 2 and 3.

So neither should anyone.

[exrockstar]

James put it that faith without works is DEAD. (james 2:18)

many people wrestle with that scripture.

THAT faith he is talking about is putting it to "work."

Helping others...however, he is not saying youre not saved.

He's saying if you put it to work you'll be blessed.

Go back and read James 1:25.

Call that faith whatever you like. Call it a "working faith."

But THAT faith has nothing to do with believing that Jesus Christ

died and rose from the dead.

[mrs]

unredtypo your beliefs are so messed up I am not even going to attempt to address them. With one breath you say that salvation is from Gods grace and mercy and in the next you say it is our good works.

Anyway that is not the topic of this thread and I encourage everyone to stay on the topic.

The topic was can a Christian be unconverted? The topic was NOT how one obtains salvation.

[Smalcald]

I find it very hard to believe that when someone has come to know the Love of God, accepts Jesus as their Savior, been sealed by the Holy Spirit and have walked with the Lord with all their heart, to even entertain the thought of turning Him away and come against Him. Those who have stated that they know the Lord, but turn away, I question if they had really known them with all their heart, or just known Him with their mind? Yet, we are told that there will be a falling away in the last days. Were they talking about those who had only know Him mentally but not Spiritually?

I think you are on to something.

To me the parable of the sower is the best illustration of what we are talking about. The parable does not say the Word is either accpeted or rejected once and for all. It gives a range of possibilities. Once again scripture is so good and so realistic. This is exactly what we see in our congregations.

What does the Word say?

18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

So we see here people who gladly accept the Word of God but it lasts only a short time. We have all seen this in our congregations.

[exrockstar]

unredtypo your beliefs are so messed up I am not even going to attempt to address them. With one breath you say that salvation is from Gods grace and mercy and in the next you say it is our good works.

Anyway that is not the topic of this thread and I encourage everyone to stay on the topic.

The topic was can a Christian be unconverted? The topic was NOT how one obtains salvation.

i agree. sorry guys if i took this thread i a different direction.

i hope i didnt mess things up.

[exrockstar]

How do you think you will be blessed by faithfully doing the good works that God gave you to do?

Paul tells us plainly in Romans 2:6 "God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

dont stop there keep going:

"8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

and what is the "truth" that some can reject?

Paul said to reject THE truth. What does he mean? oh my goodness?

So those that accept THE truth will have eternal life and those that reject will not.

That "Truth" is back in Romans 1:16.

i didnt see if youre new to this board. welcome. Attend with good attitude.

[mrs]

Because you have it all wrong. It is not based on my good works that Jesus Christ cleansed me from sin; but based on His good grace and mercy alone. To say anything else is revolting to me and against orthodox Christianity. In fact it sickens me to read it.

[mrs]

~smiles~ wrote:

Because you have it all wrong. It is not based on my good works that Jesus Christ cleansed me from sin; but based on His good grace and mercy alone. To say anything else is revolting to me and against orthodox Christianity. In fact it sickens me to read it.

I understand why you feel that way. I also felt like that until I realized that I had been believing something that was not actually what Jesus taught as the gospel.

Jesus did not die for our sins because of our works of righteousness any more than a man marries a woman because he likes the way she does dishes (hopefully). He died for us because he loved all of mankind. That is the reason that he did what he did, paying for our sins, something that we could not have done for ourselves. This is how we are justified, by his blood, but we must walk in the light as he is in the light in order for the blood to be used to cover our sin.

1 John 1:6

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Do you understand what walking in the light is? Read all of the 1st epistle of John, but especially this:

1 John 2:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5But whoso keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shines.

9He that says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10 He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

You commit the classic error of catholicsm - confusing justification and sanctification. We are either justified apart from our works i.e. walking in the light or we are not. You cannot say we are justified by his blood and then say we must walk in the light for it to cover us.

Do you understand what justification really is? Justification happens at the moment of salvation; sanctification is the lifelong process of ' walking in that light' as we are made into the image of Christ.

Justification is when we repent and throw our hope of being saved from God's wrath, on the work of His Son Christ; and when God looks at His Son and sees our sin paid for by Him. He then can stamp ' paid in full' over all of our sin. It is being made righteous by the blood of Christ; not our own works or will power.

The verses you quote have nothing to do with justification. They are simply a test; a way of checking if a person truly has been born again of God. Again, a Christian who walks in fellowship with God; who does good works and lives in a godly way is not doing it to obtain justification but because they ARE justified. They are justified and have new desires which produce new ways of living i.e walking in Godliness.

You need not be confused over these two things as the Bible is clear that justification and sanctification are two seperate things.

[exrockstar]

What, in your defination, is "The Gospel"?

i think he's saying that "the gospel" and "obeying" are the exact same thing.

they are two different things.

the gospel saves but obeying does not.

if he doesnt believe me when i say that the obeying part doesnt save then he

must think JW's are all going to heaven. They reject who Christ was but are

"obeying" commands.

If obeying saves then Christ should have not died.

He should have said some things to do then disappeared.