End times

[Celt]

I mostly use the term 'gathering to Christ' like Paul did in 2 Thess.2. I understand how the word 'rapture' is meant, but it's not in The Bible I use (KJV); it's a word that comes from the Latin.

I'm sure you know by now John 3:16 that I'm post-trib (I wish you'd at least use an alias or a first name to sign the end of your posts; I feel uncomfortable referring to you as a verse). It's OK to quote 1 Thess.4 to me about our Lord's second coming and the gathering of His saints. How could I be against that Scripture and be a Christian? But that doesn't mean I agree with a pre-trib view teaching on that.

Have you taken time to really study what Paul taught in the next 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter though? In chapter 4 he describes the gathering, but in chapter 5 he's describing the timing for it. Then look at 2 Peter 3:10, for Peter gives more events about it.

Paul also gives the timing for the gathering to Christ on the day of the Lord in 2 Thess.2...

2 Th 2:1-5

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(KJV)

Paul warns that a false one must first appear, sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God, causing a great falling away, and... that false one must be revealed. All that must occur first before any gathering to Christ Jesus.

2 Th 2:8

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:(KJV)

Paul also tells us that false one will not be revealed for who he is by us, but only by Christ's second coming to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. Thus all the references to Rome and a pope as the antichrist are for nought, for Christ only will reveal him in his time. Man can speculate all he wants, but not have the final answer on who the antichrist is or will be.

Again, like Paul showed there, no gathering until that false is revealed by Christ's coming. So that's three events Paul showed there that must occur before any gathering to Christ Jesus. 1) false one sets himself up as God; 2) a great falling away to worship that false one; and 3) Christ reveals him at His return.

That puts the time of the gathering of the saints to be 'after'... the tribulation. And that's what our Lord Jesus showed clearly in Matthew 24...

Matt 24:29-30

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(KJV)

Why will "all the tribes of the earth mourn" at Christ's coming there? It's because, as written, all eyes will see it (Rev.1). Notice our Lord Jesus also gave the timing with, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" for His return. In that Matt.24 His servants are still on earth up to that point, going through the tribulation.

Yet the most important thing for the end times, is to know that a false one is coming first, like Paul taught, and that false one is going to set himself up in place of God.

Per Rev.13:11 forward, the "another beast" is about a false religious system that is setup, including a false idol image in false worship to the "dragon". If it comes down to bowing to an idol image in false worship, I think the pre-trib folks would know better than to heed that (I hope so anyway). But what if the false one coming instead does miracles and wonders that would are so powerful in deception that it would almost deceive the "very elect", if it were possible for them to be deceived? What about that kind of working Christ mentioned in Matt.24? If the false one does that, then many will be saying Christ has returned, and try to fool us into worshipping the false one in place of Christ Jesus. Per Paul in 2 Thess.2, we know we aren't going anywhere until that false one appears and sets himself up as God, and is then revealed only by Christ's coming.

Dave

[Atonement]

When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

[Celt]

I just believe it's the promises God has made with Israel in the OT about them being nation to fulfill prophecy in. The apple of God's eye is still Israel. Even though the Church has these promises now. In that nation (Israel) it will be those who are sealed. The 144.000 are not from America or another country, but from Israel. In fact I believe it's 12,000 from each tribe of Israel?

Not all those 144,000 in Rev.7 are Jews. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi are. The rest of those Israelite tribes in that list were never known by the name Jew. The title of Jew comes from the sole tribe of Judah. Since Benjamin, and Levi were joined with Judah at Jerusalem/Judea after God split Israel into two separate kingdoms past Solomon's days, it is very wrong Biblically to call the ten tribes who were lost by the name Jew. The ten tribes of Israel were never known as Jews.

This may not seem very important, but it is extremely important, because knowing that Bible history opens up an understanding of which Bible prophecies are to whom. Some Bible prophecy in the Old Testament is to the "house of Judah" only, and some prophecy is to the ten tribes only (known as the "house of Israel" in God's Word). It's that way all the way up to Christ's return. Ezekiel 37 about the two sticks is of God's joining the two houses back together again as one stick in His hand. That won't occur until Christ's coming.

The false Jews (the "crept in unawares") would like nothing better than Christians to be deceived on this matter, for they want us to think that only Jews are Israelites.

The Biblical truth of the matter is, that God scattered the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" out of the Holy Land first, to the land of the Medes north of Babylon. That happenned around 120 years prior to the 70 years captivity of Judah to Babylon. It is nowhere written in God's Word that the ten tribes returned to the Holy Land. Only a small remnant of the "house of Judah" (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi) returned to Jerusalem to rebuild it and the second Temple. The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said in his day the ten tribes were still scattered abroad, and were a great many people, too many to be numbered. So what happened to the ten tribes?

There does exist some evidence for where most of them wound up and who they became. King Darius the Mede made a mountain carving called the Behistun Rock which still stands today in northern Iraq (near Ectabana). On it is protrayed ten tribal chieftans from the ten tribes of Israel bound in capvitiy.

The Assyrians called Omri, a king of the house of Israel, by the name Khumri (see Jehu Steele). A professor Leroy Waterman of the University of Michigan in 1930 translated some of the Assyrian Tablets, and discovered the word gamera was also used for the ten tribes while in captivity. Then he translated that directly to Cimmerian from those Tablets.

Secular history has written much about the Cimmerian tribes of ancient history. Secularists knows where the Cimmerian tribes migrated to and from. They fled through the Caucasus Mountains east of the Black Sea, and migrated into Asia Minor and western Europe, in stages with even later new tribal names. The Scythians were another branch of them which trekked west. Their later names were Celts, Gauls, Picts, Jutes, Norsk, Germani, Saxons, Angles, Franks, Normans, etc., basically, the Caucasian peoples which fled into Asia Minor and western Europe.

Secularists have been puzzled about the Cimmerians, because they know they were a separate people among the Assyrians. Yet they never understood how they came to be in ancient Assyria, i.e., where they originated from before Assyria.

Christ's enemies associated with political and religious correctness doctrines have kept this mystery from God's people in the West. So they'd like nothing better than to make us think only Jews can be flesh born Israelites. Well that's a big lie, and it's gone so far that the majority of today's Churches preach the lie right in their pulpits in ignorance.

But the truth is, that those who have a Caucasian heritage from western Europe and Asia Minor most likely are descended from one of the ten tribes of Israel which were lost when captive to Assyria. If that means you, then I'll bet you think you're a Gentile and not an Israelite, and are constantly told you're a Gentile, even by Jews.

It's not a coincidence that Christ sent His Apostles especially to preach The Gospel in Asia Minor and the West, for that's where the seven Churches in Asia Minor began. Christ sent The Gospel to the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel', and to scattered Judah, and to the Gentiles that were among them. Most of this can found as prophecy in God's Word, but there's a smear campaign against it by the "workers of iniquity" who are trying to steal Israel's heritage away from true Israel.

Bottom line? There definitely are many Israelites in the West today, and in America, for that's where the majority of Israel was scattered, AND, that's also where God's Birthright Blessings can be found! And furthermore, the majority of them are not Jews, but they are Israelites from the ten tribes, from the "house of Israel" which were never known as Jews, not Biblically, and not historically.

Don't take my word on all this. Get into real Bible study instead of playing around with men's ideas from Church Quaterlies and stuff written by some group of unknowns in a far away city.

Dave

Edited June 11, 2008 by Celt

[Guest yod]

I just believe it's the promises God has made with Israel in the OT about them being nation to fulfill prophecy in. The apple of God's eye is still Israel. Even though the Church has these promises now. In that nation (Israel) it will be those who are sealed. The 144.000 are not from America or another country, but from Israel. In fact I believe it's 12,000 from each tribe of Israel?

Not all those 144,000 in Rev.7 are Jews. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi are. The rest of those Israelite tribes in that list were never known by the name Jew. The title of Jew comes from the sole tribe of Judah. Since Benjamin, and Levi were joined with Judah at Jerusalem/Judea after God split Israel into two separate kingdoms past Solomon's days, it is very wrong Biblically to call the ten tribes who were lost by the name Jew. The ten tribes of Israel were never known as Jews.

that is a bunch of 2-HOUSE ephramite hooey!!? We will not allow you to redefine what a jew is post-biblically.

Jesus/Paul define "jew" as any of the sons of Jacob when he calls them the "circumcision". They define ALL the sons of Jacob as Israelites. These words have other definitions depending upon the context of their usage but this mishagas you've posted falls apart like a house of cards when exposed to a very little light of truth.

[Guest shiloh357]

Secular history has written much about the Cimmerian tribes of ancient history. Secularists knows where the Cimmerian tribes migrated to and from. They fled through the Caucasus Mountains east of the Black Sea, and migrated into Asia Minor and western Europe, in stages with even later new tribal names. The Scythians were another branch of them which trekked west. Their later names were Celts, Gauls, Picts, Jutes, Norsk, Germani, Saxons, Angles, Franks, Normans, etc., basically, the Caucasian peoples which fled into Asia Minor and western Europe.

this is false teaching from the British Israelism/Identity cult. I am sorry but this is not received at all on this board.

[Guest]

AMEN!

[Celt]

Ezek 37:16-22

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

(KJV)

Too bad that part of God's Word is not accepted on this Forum. Obviously per the above it has nothing to do with any so-called Identity cult, which such slurs are only propaganda by false Jews who crept into Judah in ancient times, and simply took the name Jew (Esther 8:17).

[Guest yod]

Ezek 37:16-22

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

(KJV)

Too bad that part of God's Word is not accepted on this Forum. Obviously per the above it has nothing to do with any so-called Identity cult, which such slurs are only propaganda by false Jews who crept into Judah in ancient times, and simply took the name Jew (Esther 8:17).

every letter of God's Word is accepted here...and it can not contradict any other letter of God's Word.

What you are doing is posting a verse here and a verse there which have nothing to do with each other and then drawing conclusions from thin air. This #%$!@&^#%&%@# is based on junk scholarship from Batya and Angus Wooten. I know all I need to know about it.

Do you really want to defend this 2-house baloney? I started a thread to debate it a long time ago and there were no takers who could prove this malarky to be based on anything factual. Wanna try?

It's at

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?show...c=73603&hl=

[eric]

Oh dear. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Someone has joined the wrong message board.

[Fraught]

'ruck1b' date='May 15 2008, 02:50 PM'

Do you defend the Body of Christ with such fervor? Do you speak with such distain when people dismiss our Lords Bride?

I am biased for biblical truth. I apologize if that hurts anyone but faithful are the bruises of a friend.

Israel is a manifestation of the Kingdom of God. There is no "Body of Christ" apart from Israel. The word "church" has been redefined post-biblically to mean something separate but that is not found in any quotes from the bible. The proper definition of "church" is The faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are added to them Any other definition is just wrong and misses the point of the entire bible.

The jewish people are the natural branches of "the Body" which I am defending. The Lord's Bride, according to the Word of God, is New Jerusalem and that is the same Kingdom promised to the faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles who are joined to them.

I understand that you have always been told that the Bride is the church and came by the greek perspective honestly.....but that is not found in the Bible anywhere. That is an invention of post-biblical european theologians.

God made a promise to Israel (the jews) and for the sake of their Fathers; Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and He will keep it.

We are part of their covenants...or we are not in the Kingdom at all.

To be a righteous man in the Kingdom is to be a righteous man. This is what the Lord requires of all His people, jew or gentile.

however, you will find no place in the bible where a jew can become a gentile or vice versa though there are many places where a gentile can be joined to the tribes of Israel with complete equality of purpose while retaining a distinction. Ruth, Rehab, and Caleb are good examples.

But to be a jew is something else altogether....to be a "jew" means you are a descendant of those Patriarchs whom the Lord promised the land of Israel to OR that you have undergone a conversion ceremony to become a jew. So Paul is speaking only to that group of people when he tells them that to be a "true jew" means you are a descendant of the Patriarchs, observant of God's instruction (Torah) and have also been circumcised in the heart.

yod, i respect most of your exegesis; however, if i'm reading you right, this one is completely false. Jesus himself said that to be a descendant of abraham meant nothing. God could raise up descendants from a stone and then went on to do just that, (read matthew 3:9) with Jesus being that stone.