End times

[Guest yod]

yod, i respect most of your exegesis; however, if i'm reading you right, this one is completely false. Jesus himself said that to be a descendant of abraham meant nothing. God could raise up descendants from a stone and then went on to do just that, (read matthew 3:9) with Jesus being that stone.

then you should take this up with the Lord because your interpretation of what He said in one place makes Him contradict what He says everywhere else. With regards to salvation, all people are under a curse and need Yeshua's blood atonement. All people are under the judgement of the Law and need mercy. All people are gone astray and must come to Him by trust (faith)

However, there is yet a distinction between the jews/Israel and the nations/gentiles even within the Body of Messiah or we wouldn't need chapters 2, 3, 9, 10, 11 and 12 of the book of Romans, would we? Not to mention other books addressed specifically to them like Peter and/or Hebrews

For instance, Romans 11:28 says that they are "the elect" just by being physical descendants of Abraham. God has made a covenant promise that is unique to only them.

For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel (celt: is this speaking about jews or just the 10 lost tribes?) until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins."

Concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sake; but concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as in times past ye have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief, even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.

[Celt]

The subject of the two 'houses' of Israel in God's Word is fact, as those Ezekiel 37 verses are not just something pulled out of 'thin air'. The distinction between the two sticks God made, for after Solomon's days He split Israel into two separate kingdoms. The "house of Judah" made up two tribes at Jerusalem/Judea with Solomon's son Rehoboam as king. And in the nothern land God gave ten tribes for Jeroboam from Joseph's seed to rule as king in Samaria. Thereafter the two kingdoms, or houses, went to war against each other.

Then because Jeroboam, the king over the "house of Israel" (ten tribes only) in the north setup false calf idol worship to keep the people from going down to Jerusalem to worship, and prevent augmenting Judah's kingdom, God then caused the king of Assyria to come upon them and took them all captive to the land of the Medes. It is nowhere written that those ten tribes ever returned as a people back to the Holy Land. The ten tribe's captivity was around 120 years prior to Judah's captivity to Babylon. That was history, and it is written in God's Word (1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17). It's there for anyone who wants to read it.

Moreover, per the Book of Ezra, only a very small remnant of the "house of Judah" (Judah, Benjamin) is mentioned as returning to Jerusalem after their later captivity in Babylon. The majority of the "house of Judah" actually chose to stay in Babylon after the 70 years captivity had ended, because of how God had taken care of them. Most of the house of Judah was later scattered through the nations like the ten tribes were.

Returning along with Judah were a group of Nethinim priests who couldn't show their geneaology of Israel, as written in Ezra. Those were the bondservants in Solomon's time that were left-overs from Israel's inability to conquer all the nations of Canaan (1 Kings 9:20-21).

Then per the Jewish historian Josephus, the name 'Jew' is what that small remnant of the house of Judah began to call theirselves that returned to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. He also said all those who returned, the foreigners with them, also began to use that name. At that point in history, the title Jew began to mean something else other than literal geneaology, even though it originally was taken from the sole tribe Judah. And only after that history did the idea that all Israelites are Jews come about. Paul declared himself a Jew because his descendents were of the "house of Judah", the tribe of Benjamin also using that appellation after the 70 years Babylon captivity. But the rest of the tribes, the ten tribes that were never among Judah after Solomon's days, did not use that title.

[Guest]

I Love This Scripture

God Is So Faithful

Israel

Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. Ezekiel 37:9-14

My LORD And My God Is A Jew And The KING OF THE JEWS

And He Is Coming Back For Israel Shortly

Glory Glory Glory Hallelujah

Maranatha Maranatha

Amen

Love, Joe

[Guest yod]

I've got no problem believing the Word of God regarding the sticks becoming one.

It's the "lost tribes are in Florida" bit that drives me crazy.

The rabbis of Israel believe this was fulfilled when Israel became a nation again. I don't necessarily hold that view but it doesn't really matter since I'm a gentile like you. It's not my business how the Lord decides to do it.

Did you hear that the tribe of Mannaseh has been found in India? That's a long way from Florida, btw, and they are returning slowly but surely the Word of God will be proven true but the Ephramite movement in America will be proven liars.

It's just ludicrous to interpret it any other way besides what the Word says. The Word says that HE will do this. To try and make it happen is no different than what Judas Iscariot did. Blasphemous.

[Celt]

Rather than one man, or even a few trying to make up the minds of the many on this, it's better that the majority are given the chance to decide for themselves.

Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

(KJV)

The question of course, is how was the seed of Ephraim to become "a multitude of nations", which can only mean Israelite nations? The nation state of Israel has only been one nation. Do we throw tantrums and bring Florida into this again?

1 Chr 5:1-2

1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)

(KJV)

The birthright has to do with God's blessings of great wealth, a great number of seed, ruling the gates of one's enemies, and the sceptre of royal rule. It was given through Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Jospeh, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. The conditions of the Birthright are still in effect today.

Let's take the part about the Birthright given through Abraham in Gen.22 that his seed would possess the gate of his enemies. That means controlling the coming and going of Israel's enemies. Have the Jews done that since God removed the kingdom from the husbandmen of Israel (per Matthew 21:43). No, they have been scattered and persecuted from city to city for almost the last 2,000 years, even as they will tell you, and only by U.N. Charter vote in 1948 has a remnant of them finally received a place of rest in the Holy Land. What nations then on earth, with the most military power in the world, have controlled the gates of their enemies? Find where that is, and you'll find God's Birthright.

Then there's the Birthright part of royal sceptre rule, meaning the kingline of Israel...

Gen 49:10

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.

(KJV)

Shiloh is a symbolic name for our Lord Jesus Christ. Per that prophecy, the royal sceptre was not to depart from the tribe of Judah all the way to Christ's second coming.

The last king of bloodline Judah in the land of Israel was Zedekiah in Jeremiah's day. Since then, there has never been another king of the house of David sitting upon a throne in Jerusalem, still not even today. Yet, that Gen.49:10 prophecy is definite that Judah was to keep the royal sceptre of rule all the way to Shiloh's return, meaning the kingline of Israel was to exist through perpetual generations, until Christ returns. That's how king David understood God's Promise about the earthly throne in 2 Samuel 7 also, and as Solomon too understood it, a perpetual throne on earth, an unending throne, the earthly throne Christ is to receive with His inheritance at His coming (Luke 1:32).

For that prophecy to be true, that throne must still exist on this earth today, and all the way up to Christ's return. It's not in Jerusalem, not since the prophet Jeremiah's day, so where is it today? Find out what nations have had kings upon a throne, and still today, and you'll find that part of the Birthright from God.

Gen 49:22-26

22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:

23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:

24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

25 Even by the God of thy father, Who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, Who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:

26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

(KJV)

Those blessings are specific, and they are about the Birthright from God. That has not fit the Holy Land since God split Israel into two houses after Solomon's days. That condition of the Birthright still does not exist in the state of Israel today. The Birthright wound up on the sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh per God's Word. And nowhere in God's Word was it transferred to another. Judah was to keep the sceptre royal rule and as lawgiver, which is still manifested today.

The events associated with the two sticks prophecy in Ezekiel 37 have yet to occur, for God said He will set David as king when He brings the "two nations" back together again in the land (Ezek.37:22-28; Amos 9:9-15). It's easy to leave those last verses of Ezek.37 off and try to make it sound like it's been fulfilled in 1948 when by U.N. Charter vote Israel became a nation again. But obviously, those Scriptures have yet to be fulfilled by The LORD, which means the two sticks, or "two nations" (houses of Israel) haven't been joined together yet back in the Holy Land. That joining is set for when Christ returns, and to Him will the gathering of the people be.

[Guest yod]

again....I have no problem with believing the Word of God is true and that He says what He means & means what He says. It's the whole "the lost tribes are in Florida" stretch that the Ephramite/2-House/2-stick folks say that drives me bonkers.

It is the heighth of arrogance to presume the blessings promised to Israel have been transferred to goyim in America. This is not only Replacement theology but worse, it is identity theft. And it's all based in pride.

Rather than one man, or even a few trying to make up the minds of the many on this, it's better that the majority are given the chance to decide for themselves.

And I mentioned that this debate was already going on in another thread. I wish you would read what has already been discussed and lets continue it there. You've offered nothing new nor conclusive yet.

[Fraught]

yod, i respect most of your exegesis; however, if i'm reading you right, this one is completely false. Jesus himself said that to be a descendant of abraham meant nothing. God could raise up descendants from a stone and then went on to do just that, (read matthew 3:9) with Jesus being that stone.

then you should take this up with the Lord because your interpretation of what He said in one place makes Him contradict what He says everywhere else. With regards to salvation, all people are under a curse and need Yeshua's blood atonement. All people are under the judgement of the Law and need mercy. All people are gone astray and must come to Him by trust (faith)

However, there is yet a distinction between the jews/Israel and the nations/gentiles even within the Body of Messiah or we wouldn't need chapters 2, 3, 9, 10, 11 and 12 of the book of Romans, would we? Not to mention other books addressed specifically to them like Peter and/or Hebrews

For instance, Romans 11:28 says that they are "the elect" just by being physical descendants of Abraham. God has made a covenant promise that is unique to only them.

For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel (celt: is this speaking about jews or just the 10 lost tribes?) until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins."

Concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sake; but concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as in times past ye have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief, even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.

you'll want to read paul's words in light of the words of Jesus himself, not the other way around. read deeper into these 'all' that paul speaks about. surely messianic jews right now would not consider themselves 'concluded in unbelief' and neither would you and i consider them so. they are believers.

[eric]

just an excerpt from a part of a message from Wilfred Hahn.

Why did God choose the Hebrews as His people? This topic is a stumbling block for many. Why did He make one people superior

Edited June 14, 2008 by eric

[Guest]

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Psalms 122:6

And For The Father's Sake

They Are Beloved

Forever

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 11:26-29

Have You Heard Of The Mercies Of God

Two Sticks Into One Stick

Jesus Is LORD

Amen

The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Ezekiel 37:15-28

Clapping My Hands Together

One Hallelujah To The Faithful One

Two Hallelujahs To The King Of The Jews

Three Hallelujahs To The One Named Salvation

The Name Above All Names Yeshua! Yeshua! Yeshua!

Maranatha!

Love, Joe

[Fraught]

Rather than one man, or even a few trying to make up the minds of the many on this, it's better that the majority are given the chance to decide for themselves.

Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

(KJV)

The question of course, is how was the seed of Ephraim to become "a multitude of nations", which can only mean Israelite nations? The nation state of Israel has only been one nation. Do we throw tantrums and bring Florida into this again?

1 Chr 5:1-2

1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)

(KJV)

The birthright has to do with God's blessings of great wealth, a great number of seed, ruling the gates of one's enemies, and the sceptre of royal rule. It was given through Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Jospeh, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. The conditions of the Birthright are still in effect today.

Let's take the part about the Birthright given through Abraham in Gen.22 that his seed would possess the gate of his enemies. That means controlling the coming and going of Israel's enemies. Have the Jews done that since God removed the kingdom from the husbandmen of Israel (per Matthew 21:43). No, they have been scattered and persecuted from city to city for almost the last 2,000 years, even as they will tell you, and only by U.N. Charter vote in 1948 has a remnant of them finally received a place of rest in the Holy Land. What nations then on earth, with the most military power in the world, have controlled the gates of their enemies? Find where that is, and you'll find God's Birthright.

Then there's the Birthright part of royal sceptre rule, meaning the kingline of Israel...

Gen 49:10

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.

(KJV)

Shiloh is a symbolic name for our Lord Jesus Christ. Per that prophecy, the royal sceptre was not to depart from the tribe of Judah all the way to Christ's second coming.

The last king of bloodline Judah in the land of Israel was Zedekiah in Jeremiah's day. Since then, there has never been another king of the house of David sitting upon a throne in Jerusalem, still not even today. Yet, that Gen.49:10 prophecy is definite that Judah was to keep the royal sceptre of rule all the way to Shiloh's return, meaning the kingline of Israel was to exist through perpetual generations, until Christ returns. That's how king David understood God's Promise about the earthly throne in 2 Samuel 7 also, and as Solomon too understood it, a perpetual throne on earth, an unending throne, the earthly throne Christ is to receive with His inheritance at His coming (Luke 1:32).

For that prophecy to be true, that throne must still exist on this earth today, and all the way up to Christ's return. It's not in Jerusalem, not since the prophet Jeremiah's day, so where is it today? Find out what nations have had kings upon a throne, and still today, and you'll find that part of the Birthright from God.

Gen 49:22-26

22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:

23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:

24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

25 Even by the God of thy father, Who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, Who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:

26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

(KJV)

Those blessings are specific, and they are about the Birthright from God. That has not fit the Holy Land since God split Israel into two houses after Solomon's days. That condition of the Birthright still does not exist in the state of Israel today. The Birthright wound up on the sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh per God's Word. And nowhere in God's Word was it transferred to another. Judah was to keep the sceptre royal rule and as lawgiver, which is still manifested today.

The events associated with the two sticks prophecy in Ezekiel 37 have yet to occur, for God said He will set David as king when He brings the "two nations" back together again in the land (Ezek.37:22-28; Amos 9:9-15). It's easy to leave those last verses of Ezek.37 off and try to make it sound like it's been fulfilled in 1948 when by U.N. Charter vote Israel became a nation again. But obviously, those Scriptures have yet to be fulfilled by The LORD, which means the two sticks, or "two nations" (houses of Israel) haven't been joined together yet back in the Holy Land. That joining is set for when Christ returns, and to Him will the gathering of the people be.

a question about your statement i copied here:

Gen 49:10e sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.

(KJV) Shiloh is a symbolic name for our Lord Jesus Christ. Per that prophecy, the royal sceptre was not to depart from the tribe of Judah all the way to Christ's second coming.

on the part i bolded, how did you come to that conclusion?