End times

[EricH]

So far nobody has answered a question I put forth which is "why are the 144,000 the first fruits of God". Why are we not the first fruits of God since we are saved before the 144,000?

I'll speculate about that...

Firstfruits are the first gleanings of a new harvest every year. It could be that this is speaking about a new generation of believers in Israel since the days of Yeshua? There has not been that many believers in Israel since the days of the Second Temple...but there will be in the very near future the way things are going.

Most American jews have no desire to move back to the land..but messianic jews are the exception. They are loyal to Israel and desire to be in the IDF fighting for their home. This kind of enthusiasm will only spread to the average Israeli (who is secular) looking for purpose in life. It would only take one generation to get 144,000 young men who have not been defiled by women as the scriptures call for.

Btw...I don't think a rapture has to necessarily happen before this event.

.

Agreed

[Guest]

So far nobody has answered a question I put forth which is "why are the 144,000 the first fruits of God". Why are we not the first fruits of God since we are saved before the 144,000?

I'll speculate about that...

Firstfruits are the first gleanings of a new harvest every year. It could be that this is speaking about a new generation of believers in Israel since the days of Yeshua? There has not been that many believers in Israel since the days of the Second Temple...but there will be in the very near future the way things are going....

Oh Hallelujah!

Thank You KING Jesus

Firstfruits Of The Latter-Day Outpouring, The Spiritual Restoration Of Israel?

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:28-32

[Massorite]

So far nobody has answered a question I put forth which is "why are the 144,000 the first fruits of God". Why are we not the first fruits of God since we are saved before the 144,000?

I'll speculate about that...

Firstfruits are the first gleanings of a new harvest every year. It could be that this is speaking about a new generation of believers in Israel since the days of Yeshua? There has not been that many believers in Israel since the days of the Second Temple...but there will be in the very near future the way things are going.

Most American Jews have no desire to move back to the land..but messianic Jews are the exception. They are loyal to Israel and desire to be in the IDF fighting for their home. This kind of enthusiasm will only spread to the average Israeli (who is secular) looking for purpose in life. It would only take one generation to get 144,000 young men who have not been defiled by women as the scriptures call for.

Btw...I don't think a rapture has to necessarily happen before this event.

.

Great answer Yod. I never thought about it that way. I believe that the 144,000 are for the Israelites only and my research has lead me to believe that they will do their God job after the rapture. But there is no clear scripture as to what half of or when during the 7 years the 144,000 will be in Israel.

[sheila67]

When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

[Jack_White]

if we are christians then we are of Abrahams seed...in Christ, by faith

[Guest yod]

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Concerning the post above Sheila's, sealing of the 144,000 does not take place at just any time. The events in Rev must happen according to what has been written. The sealing of the 144,000 takes place "after this" in verse 1. What does "after this" refer to? The events of the seals being opened in Rev 6, which means that the sun must turn black (Rev 6:12), the moon blood red, and the stars must fall from the sky. If those events were physical, how could anyone be alive to even be sealed? (For cross-reference, this is the same event described in Mt 24:29; Mt 24:3 sets the context.)

the Sun has been blackened and the moon turned red many many times in history over Israel but it was always the perspective of humans on planet Earth. The sun will only actually be black when it has burned out and the moon has no light to turn red. The stars falling from the skies is also figurative language since stars are not physically "in" our sky. The Prophet is describing his perspective of what he sees in the vision.

Your post indicates you don't think it is physically possible but I disagree. Not saying that this is "THE SCENARIO" but this is one possibility. What if, God forbid, Iran gets a nuke right about the time that America puts in that nuclear shield over eastern Europe? What if they were to buy a few nukes from rouge former-Soviet states? If they launched a missile at Israel, NATO would launch 20 missiles to knock it down and then maybe a few more missiles would go flying into Iran and then the Russians launch a few....and then Pakistan and India start launching and North Korea gets in on the act.

We live in a day when nuclear exchanges could change the geo-political face of the earth (the balance of power) in only a few hours. Were this kind of nuclear warfare sustained over a few days, we would see nuclear winter covering the globe. The missiles in the sky would resemble stars falling to someone who had never seen an intercontinental ballistic missile. The nuclear cloud caused by so many bombs would darken the sun and the moon would appear red through that cloud. It has happened before when Hussein set fire to the oil wells in Kuwait.

This prophecy could also be describing some natural event as well...if there were a severe asteroid shower or multiple comets...if just one or two major volcanos erupted....if there were a huge earthquake accompanied by volcanic activity. All these things are described and many are even prophecied to happen in this end-time prophecy.

We also must realize that the events of Rev were written spiritually and not physically, and that the spiritual events do have an actual reality. For example, Isaiah 53 prophesies that a lamb will be slaughtered. At the time of the first coming, was there a physical lamb that hung on the cross? No. Spiritually, a lamb did come, but the actual reality was Jesus. If we do not know the spiritual meaning of figurative language in prophecy (and its actual fulfillment), will we be among those who have faith when the Son of Man comes back? (Lk 18:8)

The use of symbolism and metaphors is not "spiritual meaning". Symbols, metaphors, and analogies are figurative descriptions of some physically manifested reality. Let's take your example.

The Lamb spoken of in Isaiah 53 is a symbolic description of a manifest reality, in this case Yeshua. Was He not a literal event in history? Did He only come spiritually or was that a real man on the cross? Describing Him as "a lamb" was using symbolism to describe His purpose but Isaiah was speaking of a future literal reality which happened exactly as he said. There was definitely a physical reality and a literal manifestation of that Lamb on the cross even though Isaiah used a symbolic metaphor to describe it.

In the same way, it would be incorrect to think that just because Revelation uses symbolic metaphors to describe the conditions by which these prophecies will be fulfilled that they are speaking of anything other than exactly what they describe. Yes, symbolic language is used to describe events which are physical/literal reality but only because the Prophet had to describe something he had never seen before. How would you describe a vision of a full-out nuclear exchange if you lived 3,000 years ago?

"Spiritual" meaning is only accurate once you have ascertained the literal interpretation of a particular verse. It is studying a verse to understand it's correct and proper interpretation (who said it and who is the intended audience and why was it said?) and then finding the application to our personal life. Many have looked for analogies and then called it "spiritual interpretation" but that is how we get cults. Once you use "spiritual" interpretations that are disconnected from the literal reality, we can make the Word say whatever we want it to say.

We should endeavor to hold only those things which the bible actually say going neither to the right or the left; adding and subtracting nothing from the Word itself.

[Guest shiloh357]

Why is there a distinction between Israel and the Gentiles again

What do you mean by "again?" There has always been that distinction.

Paul says that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile with respect to salvation. In matters concerning access to God's grace through Christ, Jews and Gentiles are the same. So are males and females and slaves and freemen.

Paul's point is simply that Ethnicity, gender and social status provide no advantage or disadvantage where access to God's grace is concerned. That is the only place where no distinction exists.

Israel has always been God's chosen nation and always will be. It is called out, and separate nation. It is no wonder that it is universally hated by every other nation on the planet.

[Celt]

There is an old doctrine being pushed again today about the Gospel going to Israel being different than the Gospel to the Gentiles. It goes so far as to say that the Gospel of the kingdom is for Israel only, and that the Gospel of Grace is for Gentiles. They try to use what Paul said in Ephesians 1 about the mystery of the Gospel going to the Gentiles. What the doctrine tries to do is separate the one Gospel into two different Gospels, one for the circumcision (Israel) and another for the uncircumcision (Gentiles). What Paul was talking about was different administrations of the same Gospel, not two separate Gospels.

Paul was not declaring a different Gospel to the Gentiles. Per Acts 9:15 he was chosen to take the same Gospel to the Gentiles, to the kings, and to the children of Israel. No difference between the Jew and Gentile in that.

The twin Gospel idea appears to have come about from the "secret rapture" theory and dispensational doctrines that sprang up in Britain in the 1830's, Darby, et al. Thus you'll find most of those denying Scripture like Romans 11:1-5 where Paul proclaimed a flesh Israelite remnant according to the election of GRACE.

To give more support for their "secret rapture" theory, since God's Word shows His elect will go through the tribulation, they had to dream up some idea which would support their theory of the Gentile Church being raptured out prior to the tribulation, while Israel is 'left behind'.

In Rev.7 two groups are being mentioned. It's not just about the Israelite remnant according to the election of grace in the first 8 verses, but also about the elect Gentiles in Christ which in verse 14 forward shows they came out of great tribulation, meaning they will go through the tribulation too. Christ's Body is not separate, and will not be separated to serve men's doctrines like that "secret rapture" theory. The Gospel of the kingdom is as much to believing Gentiles as it is to believing Israel, just like Grace through Christ is also.

I've even heard some take those ideas even further in trying to support the "secret rapture" theory. There's an idea like the Gentiles Church will be raptured out prior to the tribulation, and then will remain in Heaven with Christ through the Milennium, while Israel on earth is established again as a Kingdom with a Milennium Temple, sacrifices, etc. Such an idea simply isn't written in God's Word, and it only shows to what lengths some men will go to in order to try and establish their own doctrine.

Dave

[John3;16]

There is an old doctrine being pushed again today about the Gospel going to Israel being different than the Gospel to the Gentiles. It goes so far as to say that the Gospel of the kingdom is for Israel only, and that the Gospel of Grace is for Gentiles. They try to use what Paul said in Ephesians 1 about the mystery of the Gospel going to the Gentiles. What the doctrine tries to do is separate the one Gospel into two different Gospels, one for the circumcision (Israel) and another for the uncircumcision (Gentiles). What Paul was talking about was different administrations of the same Gospel, not two separate Gospels.

Dave

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Pre-trib rapture post trib millennium veiw.

It is by Grace through faith that we are saved, God gave the law to Israel, but he forenew that no one would be justified by the law, and the Apostle paul reveals this in Romans 3:19,20 that all become guilty under the law, so that we have need of a new covenant. And God fulfills the old covenant through Christ our Lord, God did not just void the covenant of the law, that is why we establish the law, eventhough it serves to condemn us, but it also drive us to Christ to seek forgiveness through his atonement. The Apostle Paul also describes how Abraham lived four hundred plus years before the law was given, and the Apostle goes on to describe how we also receive salvation through faith just as Abrahm, so you see there has only been one way to salvation, and that is through grace by faith. Now the question regarding the Millennium, I will get to the rapture and the tribulation period following. The first thing we need to understand about the thousand year reign of Christ is: will there be unsaved people entering the Millennium? There still is death being recorded during this period. We know that Satan is bound during the thousand years, but is released at the end and he once again decieves some of the nations. Another point is that nations will still be divided, and during this time there will be no question who the Messiah is, nor the work of salvation. But the new Heaven and the New earth have not been created. The Great White Throne judgement will also follow the Millennium, so this reveals to me that the remnant left from Israel and the nations will enter the millenium in a unregenerated body, but there will be living waters flowing and the devel will not be there to decieve and tempt, and without direct sun light people will live much longer. There may be other forces at work to keep their bodies healthy, I don't see a lot of details in scripture but we know they will live many years longer and healthier. During this time it says Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. It appears that Sin will not be tolerated as it is today. But if there are unbelievers that enter the millennium, I don't see how they could remain as such. And what abnout those who are born during this time, is it still by grace through faith? Do they still have a sin nature? Some will rebell at the end. And some will comit sin, as recorded. So is this a different salvation plan? I believe that Jesus paid for all the sins that man has committed, and there is no other way. But do they still need faith, when Christ is ruling on this planet?

Roman 3:

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

[John3;16]

It is clear there will be a rapture, in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 it states that we (believers) who are alive (at his coming) shall be caught up (rapture) with them (those who have died in the Lord) to meet the Lord in the air: and we will forever there after be with the Lord. So your argument cannot be that there is no rapture, but when the rapture occurrs. In Revelation 19:7 we see the marrage of the Lamb has come, the bride is presented as white and clean (through the blood of the Savior) then in verse 14 we see his bride following the Lord to set up his kingdom on earth. (14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.). Verse 15 describes the return of the Lord, mentioned as the day of the Lord, coming with his armies (his bride, who will ever be with the Lord, and who will reign with Him) to smite the nations, and rule with a rod of iron.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

now if the Churh is in heaven, and returning with the Lord, in the Day of the Lord, how did they get there? Rapture maybe. This is all that leads up to His return.

1 Thessalonians 4

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.