polygamist sect hearing in texas decends into farce

[JustinM]

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/192369.php

Some interesting and disturbing updates on this story.

[anitarose]

Justin, this fits in with the history I printed earlier about the Mormons and the Demoncats, I mean Democrats....

And Leonard, I love you dearly, but get your fact straight. Miss Scarlet is correct when she said Jesus advocated one man, one woman in marriage. He was against adultery as well, which is basically what polygamy is.

And come on here---how can one man put up with so many wives? One should be sufficient!

a.

[stacey c]

Remember that NEXT TIME the government might decide YOUR church has money and property they want! Andthey can trump up charges against you too!

This is true. Or they may decide your church is dangerous and has to be "dealt with".

I don't mean to hijack a thread, but this is already happening. I recieved an E=mail from my director the other day that agroup is petitioning to have all christian programming removed from television and radio.

[anitarose]

Stacey, there's a lot of hoaxes about that. Before you believe it, go check it out on www.snopes.com.

Back to my original thread here....I just copied an article from the Jerusalem Post from a very famous Orthodox Rabbi---Shmuely Boteach----on this very subject. Leonard, in particular, I would like you to read what Judaism says about polygamy, since that seems to be where you're getting your idea, and remember that Sh'aul (Paul) was taught something similar and that's how it ended up in the Scriptures.

Here's the article, in it's fullest form:

About two months ago, my wife and I visited the Fundamentalist Mormon community of Colorado City, Arizona, the base of imprisoned leader Warren Jeffs. I had always wanted to see for myself how this community lives.

Arriving late in the afternoon, we went to the main supermarket, where tens of fundamentalist Mormons were out buying food with their families. They were understandably suspicious of these intruders and reluctant to engage us in conversation. After a while, the manager of the store came over to us and asked, with considerable warmth, if we had found what we were looking for. He politely confessed that the community was unused to outsiders and hinted that perhaps it was time for us to continue on our journey.

I told him that I was an Orthodox rabbi, that I had, thank God, eight kids, and that it was nice to see so many children in a community. I also told him that I had a long-standing relationship with the Mormon Church, and that I had always wanted to visit the Fundamentalist Mormons as well. He told me that if I was friendly with the official Mormon Church, then no doubt I had a negative view of their community - to which I responded that I tended to make judgments based on my own observations rather than on what I had been told. We spoke a little to some of the young mothers we met, although I could not say whether any of these women were younger than the age of consent.

The people were pleasant, albeit suspicious. They lived lives bereft of any extravagance, and that was about all I could conclude in such a short visit.

A month later, the Texas authorities entered the Fundamentalist Mormon conclave in Texas and removed over 400 kids they said were in imminent danger of abuse and under-age marriage. To the extent that any of this is true, and some of it seems to be, this is extremely troubling. No amount of love for children or marriage can ever justify under-age marriage, statutory rape, or forcing a woman to marry against her will, all of which is not only illegal but deeply sinful.

BUT EVER since the Texas raid, I have also found myself on the defensive answering questions from curious friends about Judaism's approach to polygamy, with many believing that our faith allows the practice. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The Bible makes it clear that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve, Cindy and Bonnie. The ideal of monogamy is thus established at the very outset of Creation. Similarly Abraham, the first Jew, has one wife, Sarah, until she pushes him to take another wife since she is barren. Likewise, Isaac is completely monogamous, and Jacob intends to be so as well until he is tricked by his own father-in-law into marrying the wrong woman; which will later necessitate marrying the right one as well.

The only real biblical examples of men with many wives are the Jewish kings, like David and Solomon. When it came to kings, who back in ancient times would usurp whatever women they craved, the Bible sought to impose upon Jewish rulers a respect for women. This was done by allowing them to take women beyond their original wives so long as they married them, which would thereby grant them rights, as opposed to simply being used and discarded. But this was a concession to a virile male nature and never an ideal to be upheld. Monogamy was always the standard to which men were directed.

Later, after biblical times, Rabbeinu Gershom took the monogamous standard and made it law, enacting an edict binding on all European Jewry outlawing polygamy forever. And that has been the Jewish norm for more than 1,000 years.

THERE IS good reason to outlaw polygamy. Marriage is the most romantic institution because it establishes the inviolate uniqueness of its participants. A woman is made to feel that she is the one and only to her husband. A husband's devotion confers upon his wife the blessings of primacy and exclusivity. But polygamy subverts that pledge, establishing not a woman's uniqueness, but her ordinariness. Her husband marries her with the express understanding that she alone will not satisfy him. He requires others. She is inadequate.

Likewise, she is forced now to compete for his affections for the rest of her life, thereby immersing her in an unnatural competition for the man who has already pledged himself to her. This competition also erodes the natural, universal sisterhood of women, engaged as they are, even after marriage, in rivalry for the affections of the same man.

In this sense, polygamy leads not to peace and harmony but to altercation and strife. How can any polygamous marriage be happy when, by its very nature, it does not bring people together but drives them apart?

Marriage is the foundation of every civilized society precisely because of its civilizing influences. Marriage takes a man and a woman who are strangers to each other, orchestrates them together into inseparable flesh, and lends children a stable and secure environment within which to be raised.

Polygamy, in contrast, offers children a model not of security but of rivalry, not of confidence but of permanent insecurity, as the members of a single household compete to be favorites. It is a toxic environment in which men are kings and women are courtiers.

After marrying and sacrificing all for her husband, no woman should ever have to feel that she is still not good enough. Likewise, in the Jewish religion no woman can ever be forced to marry a man who is not her choice. As the Bible makes clear in the story of Rebecca's courtship with Isaac, her family says that we must "ask the maiden" if she wishes to follow Eliezer, the matchmaker, and marry Isaac. Only with her consent can the deed be done.

Every marriage must be based on the exercise of free will to transform a stranger into our one and only.

[faith pleases God]

Were 400+ children/parents taken from one another on allegations? What happened to freedom and rights (innocent until PROVEN guilty?) It seems as nobody protects the freedom hundreds of thousands Americans died for to gain it, and we the people so easily concede it. (but you'll hear great arguments on why we need to be in Iraq). This sets a dangerous precedence on what people are thinking is okay and the power the government is excercising over WE THE PEOPLE, this includes everyone of us. Yet we are divided and do not protect our system and freedoms. There is a different war happening. One the mainstream media gives no credibility or acknowledgement. That is war against freedom, rights and liberty. These words have become semantics in our culture, and our children are being set up for a takeover in the mold of the Nazi's.

BTW- Hitler and Mussolini were elected officials.

[anitarose]

Were 400+ children/parents taken from one another on allegations? What happened to freedom and rights (innocent until PROVEN guilty? It seems as nobody protects the freedom hundreds of thousands Americans died for to gain it, and we the people so easily concede it. (but you'll hear great arguments on why we need to be in Iraq). This sets a dangerous precedence on what people are thinking is okay and the power the government is excercising over WE THE PEOPLE, this includes everyone of us. Yet we are divided and do not protect our system and freedoms. There is a different war happening. One the mainstream media gives no credibility or acknowledgement. That is war against freedom, rights and liberty. These words have become semantics in our culture, and our children are being set up for a takeover in the mold of the Nazi's.

BTW- Hitler and Mussolini were elected officials.

They were taken because of one allegation that was investigated and proven. 416 children, over 100 of them under the age of 18 and pregnant. It doesn't matter that the call was a hoax, it was investigated and obviously they have enough proof that it continues. Polygamy is against the law, and so is pedophilia---sex with minors.

I seriously hope you are not an advocate of abuse to minors in any way shape or form. It sounds like you're an a advocate of freedom, but there are certain "freedoms" that aren't free---and that's having sex with a 13 year old.

a.

[faith pleases God]

Were 400+ children/parents taken from one another on allegations? What happened to freedom and rights (innocent until PROVEN guilty? It seems as nobody protects the freedom hundreds of thousands Americans died for to gain it, and we the people so easily concede it. (but you'll hear great arguments on why we need to be in Iraq). This sets a dangerous precedence on what people are thinking is okay and the power the government is excercising over WE THE PEOPLE, this includes everyone of us. Yet we are divided and do not protect our system and freedoms. There is a different war happening. One the mainstream media gives no credibility or acknowledgement. That is war against freedom, rights and liberty. These words have become semantics in our culture, and our children are being set up for a takeover in the mold of the Nazi's.

BTW- Hitler and Mussolini were elected officials.

They were taken because of one allegation that was investigated and proven. 416 children, over 100 of them under the age of 18 and pregnant. It doesn't matter that the call was a hoax, it was investigated and obviously they have enough proof that it continues. Polygamy is against the law, and so is pedophilia---sex with minors.

I seriously hope you are not an advocate of abuse to minors in any way shape or form. It sounds like you're an a advocate of freedom, but there are certain "freedoms" that aren't free---and that's having sex with a 13 year old.

a.

You DO NOT take away the freedom of an entire community based on allegations and assumptions. This is SO destructive to a republic, and the gov't will abuse this precedence in the future. And, oh yes, us Christians will soon one day be a target. Being called intolerant disruptors. Even laws will be written against what our Holy Bible, Lord and Savior teach. These days are in front of us. And it will be done in the name of goodness and well-being for everyone. No harrassment or discrimination. Live and be like us.

I agree that crimes exist, maybe or maybe not in this case. This is why we have due process. And to protect freedom (rights) we must pressume innocence before guilt. Am I speaking to a nation of sheeple that has been dumbed down, public educated and knows not of history? Why do you think there was a revolution? Why do you think we wrote the Constitution (that's continually violated without remorse) as such?

There are speedy trials and if found guilty they should be dealt with harshly. But not forced to serve a judgement before trial or conviction. Especially on what maybe a hoax.

[faith pleases God]

Were 400+ children/parents taken from one another on allegations? What happened to freedom and rights (innocent until PROVEN guilty? It seems as nobody protects the freedom hundreds of thousands Americans died for to gain it, and we the people so easily concede it. (but you'll hear great arguments on why we need to be in Iraq). This sets a dangerous precedence on what people are thinking is okay and the power the government is excercising over WE THE PEOPLE, this includes everyone of us. Yet we are divided and do not protect our system and freedoms. There is a different war happening. One the mainstream media gives no credibility or acknowledgement. That is war against freedom, rights and liberty. These words have become semantics in our culture, and our children are being set up for a takeover in the mold of the Nazi's.

BTW- Hitler and Mussolini were elected officials.

They were taken because of one allegation that was investigated and proven. 416 children, over 100 of them under the age of 18 and pregnant. It doesn't matter that the call was a hoax, it was investigated and obviously they have enough proof that it continues. Polygamy is against the law, and so is pedophilia---sex with minors.

I seriously hope you are not an advocate of abuse to minors in any way shape or form. It sounds like you're an a advocate of freedom, but there are certain "freedoms" that aren't free---and that's having sex with a 13 year old.

a.

"It sounds like you're an a advocate of freedom, but there are certain "freedoms" that aren't free"

It sounds as if you have no knowledge of how our freedoms came about or the importance of protecting them. No "freedom" is free. You are the semantic abuser I am speaking to. Freedoms do not = illegal. You are making a case against what's illegal not what's free. Do not confuse the two. This is missusing terms and it is manipulative.

Making the case against what's illegal, it should be dealt with justice and trial, not pressumed guilt. Like the communists and Nazi's do. BTW- they agree with you "it's to protect not intrude, but sometimes you gotta do what you got to do" this is the propaganda they feed the masses to accept their abuse of freedom and liberty.

[anitarose]

Were 400+ children/parents taken from one another on allegations? What happened to freedom and rights (innocent until PROVEN guilty? It seems as nobody protects the freedom hundreds of thousands Americans died for to gain it, and we the people so easily concede it. (but you'll hear great arguments on why we need to be in Iraq). This sets a dangerous precedence on what people are thinking is okay and the power the government is excercising over WE THE PEOPLE, this includes everyone of us. Yet we are divided and do not protect our system and freedoms. There is a different war happening. One the mainstream media gives no credibility or acknowledgement. That is war against freedom, rights and liberty. These words have become semantics in our culture, and our children are being set up for a takeover in the mold of the Nazi's.

BTW- Hitler and Mussolini were elected officials.

They were taken because of one allegation that was investigated and proven. 416 children, over 100 of them under the age of 18 and pregnant. It doesn't matter that the call was a hoax, it was investigated and obviously they have enough proof that it continues. Polygamy is against the law, and so is pedophilia---sex with minors.

I seriously hope you are not an advocate of abuse to minors in any way shape or form. It sounds like you're an a advocate of freedom, but there are certain "freedoms" that aren't free---and that's having sex with a 13 year old.

a.

"It sounds like you're an a advocate of freedom, but there are certain "freedoms" that aren't free"

It sounds as if you have no knowledge of how our freedoms came about or the importance of protecting them. No "freedom" is free. You are the semantic abuser I am speaking to. Freedoms do not = illegal. You are making a case against what's illegal not what's free. Do not confuse the two. This is missusing terms and it is manipulative.

Making the case against what's illegal, it should be dealt with justice and trial, not pressumed guilt. Like the communists and Nazi's do. BTW- they agree with you "it's to protect not intrude, but sometimes you gotta do what you got to do" this is the propaganda they feed the masses to accept their abuse of freedom and liberty.

I do in fact have a knowledge of how our freedoms came to be---I had 2 uncles and a father in law that served in WWII, and fought for our country. Last I knew, sexually abusing 13 year olds were not a freedom that is protected under the law.

There is a Scripture verse that says that if you go along with someone who is sinning, you yourself are also guilty of that sin. I don't want to be in that grouping. If I have to speak out against pedophilia, who ever is doing it, I will. I know far too many victims of that particular crime to NOT speak out.

And for the record, I don't appreciate being called an abuser of any kind. I know where I stand. I'm sorry that you don't.

a.

[faith pleases God]

Were 400+ children/parents taken from one another on allegations? What happened to freedom and rights (innocent until PROVEN guilty? It seems as nobody protects the freedom hundreds of thousands Americans died for to gain it, and we the people so easily concede it. (but you'll hear great arguments on why we need to be in Iraq). This sets a dangerous precedence on what people are thinking is okay and the power the government is excercising over WE THE PEOPLE, this includes everyone of us. Yet we are divided and do not protect our system and freedoms. There is a different war happening. One the mainstream media gives no credibility or acknowledgement. That is war against freedom, rights and liberty. These words have become semantics in our culture, and our children are being set up for a takeover in the mold of the Nazi's.

BTW- Hitler and Mussolini were elected officials.

They were taken because of one allegation that was investigated and proven. 416 children, over 100 of them under the age of 18 and pregnant. It doesn't matter that the call was a hoax, it was investigated and obviously they have enough proof that it continues. Polygamy is against the law, and so is pedophilia---sex with minors.

I seriously hope you are not an advocate of abuse to minors in any way shape or form. It sounds like you're an a advocate of freedom, but there are certain "freedoms" that aren't free---and that's having sex with a 13 year old.

a.

"It sounds like you're an a advocate of freedom, but there are certain "freedoms" that aren't free"

It sounds as if you have no knowledge of how our freedoms came about or the importance of protecting them. No "freedom" is free. You are the semantic abuser I am speaking to. Freedoms do not = illegal. You are making a case against what's illegal not what's free. Do not confuse the two. This is missusing terms and it is manipulative.

Making the case against what's illegal, it should be dealt with justice and trial, not pressumed guilt. Like the communists and Nazi's do. BTW- they agree with you "it's to protect not intrude, but sometimes you gotta do what you got to do" this is the propaganda they feed the masses to accept their abuse of freedom and liberty.

I do in fact have a knowledge of how our freedoms came to be---I had 2 uncles and a father in law that served in WWII, and fought for our country. Last I knew, sexually abusing 13 year olds were not a freedom that is protected under the law.

There is a Scripture verse that says that if you go along with someone who is sinning, you yourself are also guilty of that sin. I don't want to be in that grouping. If I have to speak out against pedophilia, who ever is doing it, I will. I know far too many victims of that particular crime to NOT speak out.

And for the record, I don't appreciate being called an abuser of any kind. I know where I stand. I'm sorry that you don't.

a.

You're way off base. First I'm talking of history 300 years ago, not 75. When a real, not fabricated war was fought. Second, I'm not for crime I'm for due process and rights. There's a difference. You're either confused by the two or manipulative. All people that are alleged of a crime should have the right to a trial. To say, "aw well we know molesting happens and there is an accusation (real or not we don't know?) so let's lynch the town;" is immature, abusive and a slap in the face to liberty. This type of behavior being carried out by our gov't and being received by our citizens is why America is and will be in ruins. The worst part is we think we are doing right.