Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[Massorite]

Just thought I would share an additional perspective. I will be upfront, I no longer believe in any rapture of any kind. If you will indulge me....

Years ago when I first started going to church, I was of course taught about the pre-trib rapture. I never accepted it, but never really doubted it either because at the time, well, I was all wet behind the ears. As the years (really about a year) went by, I really began to study the topic and soon became convinced that the rapture would happen at the end of the tribulation. The parable of the wheat and tares (Matt. 13) had the tares (children of the wicked one) taken "before" the wheat. (Children of the Kingdom)There were other facets to it that gave me additional witnesses, like Messiah likening his return to the days of Noah and Lot. Both men were moved to places of safety, but neither were REmoved from earth. And as Messiah stated, "so shall it be in the day of the Son of Man."

So about a decade went by when I began to take a different course in how I viewed scripture. I began to realize that those who were inspired to write the scriptures were Hebrew, who wrote predominantly in Hebrew, who grew up and lived in a Hebraic culture, and most importantly, "thought" like a Hebrew. Idioms and phraseology was used by them which are Hebrew... so why am I trying to discern their writings, prayerfully, with a Western Greek influenced mind? My culture (USA) is Greek influenced in thought, and I was trying to understand scripture through that paradigm.

The concept of a rapture is simply not Hebraic. Being "caught up in the clouds" is a Hebrew idiom and metaphor and is not literal. I was once 45 minutes late from a meeting getting home and when I got home my worried wife asked, "what happened, I was worried sick!" My answer, "I got caught up in the fog and couldn't see where I was driving." The same type event when the "cloud" was placed between the Israelites and the Egyptian army during the beginning of the Exodus. The Israelites, as far as the Egyptian Army was concerned, was "caught up in a cloud." The OT, speaks of God's people being "returned" to the Promised Land, not whisked into heaven where they spend eternity. The meek inherit the earth, not heaven.

Another user pointed out as his first point in understanding the rapture that we need to understand the difference between the church and Israel. Respectfully, I could not disagree more. It is from that mindset, that doctrine, that we have a doctrine like the rapture in the first place. (The doctrine of a rapture is rather modern incidentally...a few hundred years old at best) Folks, the church, whether you are taught this or not, IS Israel. Not a replacement for Israel, there are still the 12 tribes of Israel, we do not replace them. But we are grafted into them as seen in Romans 11. Ephesians 2 couldn't be plainer when it tells us that "in times PAST" we were gentiles, HAD no hope, weren't partakers of the covenants of promise, and WERE considered aliens (non-citizens) of "the Commonweath of Israel." Yet Paul writes on saying that NOW through Messiah and the blood he shed, we are NOW no longer "aliens" but "fellow citizens with the saints." (Israel) This is why my brothers and sisters in Messiah, that when you read the prophecy of the new covenant (which we know is cut through Messiah), it is made ONLY with the House of Judah and the House of Israel. This prophecy is repeated word for word in Hebrews 8. There is NO mention of "the church" in relation to the new covenant. "Church" is probably not the best word translated from ekklēsia anyway..... "called out ones" is the literal meaning. It can also mean assembly or gathering... an assembly of those who come in faith through Messiah, the ones called out from the nations.

And therein rests another untaught piece of information that removes confusion from this subject. After Soloman, Israel was split into two Kingdoms, the Southern Kingdom called Judah (made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and a splattering of Levi), and the Northern Kingdom called Israel (made up of the remaining 10 tribes). When both Kingdoms were taken into captivity, scripture is clear, only Judah (the modern short form is "Jew") the Southern Kingdom came back to the Land. The Northern Kingdom was scattered into the nations, given up for idols, lost their identity, and prophetically speaking, has not yet returned. (Read all of Ezk 37, Jer. 31:31-34 and I can supply more on request)

So when Messiah came, who did he come for?

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Millions were "scattered" (or sown) into the nations (go back and read the parable of the wheat and tares with this in mind, Matt 13) and 62 generations later, amount to how many? In how many nations? Abraham's seed dear friends is Israel and is so vast it can't be counted, and by faith we are Abraham's seed. So, some of us are more than likely descendents of the scattered Northern Kingdom, and even if we are not, no matter... we are grafted into Israel becoming a "fellow citizen" anyway. And in the end, when Messiah returns, he sends his angels to gather his chosen (eklektos G 1588) and we will be "returned" to the Land, and will reign with Messiah for 1000 years. When the "church" begins to grasp the idea of who they were grafted into, prophecies about the end time become less divisive because the meanings become much clearer.

Sorry this was so long, but this was even the cliff note version.

Peace to you all.

Ken

Right off the bat. Being caught up in the clouds is in fact a reality and not simply an idiom or a metaphor. The word clouds is not speaking of any kind of clouds like the kind we see every day in the sky. In this verse the word clouds is speaking of the glory of God not rain clouds or any other form of weather related cloud.

The reason that being caught up in the clouds is real is because it has already happened unless you want to some how discredit what has already happened to Isaiah who was among other things caught up in the glory of God The transfiguration was also the glory of God and Jesus was also caught up in the glory of God. I am talking about the same kind of, shall we say "glory cloud" that lead the Israelites in the desert and the same kind of cloud that would be present at the temple when God was there sitting on the mercy seat and the very same kind of Cloud or Glory of God that will be present when we are resurrected/.raptured. People get stuck on the word "rapture" because of all the false or non biblical teachings that go along with the word rapture. The real deal is that one can call it the rapture or the resurrection but they are both talking about how we will be raised from the grave, changed into our glorfied bodies and "caught up in the glory of God" when Jesus returns for us to meet Him in the Glory of His Father. God manifested to us.

In the parable of the wheat and tares the whole field of wheat harvested ALL at the same time which means that the tares are harvested at the same time as the wheat. In those days the first thing the farmer always immediately after some wheat was harvested was to take out or removed anything that was not wheat. This is why the tares were sifted or removed and destroyed first while the harvested wheat was still in the field and before the wheat was taken to the threshing floor to finish removing that which was not wanted. Oh yes and let us not forget about the process to get rid of the chafe which is also unwanted. The wheat is thrown up into the air and that is when the chafe is blown away and the wheat falls back to the earth. Also done while the wheat is still in the field and unrefined. We will not be taken up so we can escape the tribulation period because that is when the chafe that is among us will be separated from us and then the bride of Christ will be without spot or wrinkle and ready to be raised to meet Jesus in the glory of God.

So as the resurrection/rapture or shall we say harvest time goes we will be raised from the dead/grave and at that time the tares or false Christians will be separated from us because they will never be raised from the grave. Next we will be taken up in the air where we will meet Jesus in the clouds/glory of God, Next we will be taken to heaven where we will stand before the thrown of God, dressed in white robes and holding palms. We will be number which no man can count. After Jesus presents us to His Father as an acceptable gift we will fall or descend back to earth where we will live with Jesus in a glorified body for a thousand years.

You are absolutely correct about how we have been grafted in as a people into Israel. But the nation of Israel we have to day is still receiving the promises God gave Abraham in the old testament. All prophecy is centered around the Israelites as a nation. Even after we have been resurrected the Israeli nation we have today will still be here on earth being protected from their enemies by God just as He has promised. And when we come back down to earth from heaven it will be the Israelite nation we will be coming back to live in for a thousand years along with anyone else who is still alive and in the flesh.

And lastly we can be called out from among the nations only if we are removed from the nations. Called out means the same thing as being "removed from" and only God has the power to remove us from the nations. The grace of God can not abide on the earth at the same time as the wrath of God and we are not appointed to suffer or even to abide here on this eath while the wrath of God is on the earth. It is like oil and water. The words 'tribulation and wrath are speaking of two different events and have two different meanings. They are not the same.

[Miss Elly]

Scriptures plainly show that Jesus will return and take His saints out of this world before the tribulation. He will later return with them and the armies of Heaven to put down all rebellion and all sin.

The rapture is a distinct event in itself and takes place at least seven years before the second coming of christ. The rapture takes place before the tribulation, and the second coming after the tribulation. The rapture is the time when Christ comes FOR the saints (1 Thess. 4:13-17), and the second coming is when He comes back to the Earth WITH them (Zech. 14:1-5; Jude 14; Rev. 19:11-21). At the rapture, Christ takes the saints to heaven (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16; Col. 3:4), and at the second coming He Leaves Heaven with them (Rev. 19 11-21). At the rapture Christ does not come to Earth (1 thess.4:16) but at the second coming He does (Zech.14:14; Matt. 24:29-31). Since Christ does not come to earth at the rapture, it cannot be called the second coming of Christ.

Praise God for ever more! Haz.

Agree, agree! The bible plainly says that we are not appointed unto wrath (speaking of the great tribulation) so we will be raptured. My opinon here.

[Massorite]

Scriptures plainly show that Jesus will return and take His saints out of this world before the tribulation. He will later return with them and the armies of Heaven to put down all rebellion and all sin.

The rapture is a distinct event in itself and takes place at least seven years before the second coming of Christ. The rapture takes place before the tribulation, and the second coming after the tribulation. The rapture is the time when Christ comes FOR the saints (1 Thess. 4:13-17), and the second coming is when He comes back to the Earth WITH them (Zech. 14:1-5; Jude 14; Rev. 19:11-21). At the rapture, Christ takes the saints to heaven (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16; Col. 3:4), and at the second coming He Leaves Heaven with them (Rev. 19 11-21). At the rapture Christ does not come to Earth (1 thess.4:16) but at the second coming He does (Zech.14:14; Matt. 24:29-31). Since Christ does not come to earth at the rapture, it cannot be called the second coming of Christ.

Praise God for ever more! Haz.

Agree, agree! The bible plainly says that we are not appointed unto wrath (speaking of the great tribulation) so we will be raptured. My opinion here.

No you got it wrong Miss Elly. Look up the words "wrath and tribulation" in the Greek and you will find that they do not mean the same thing nor do the speak of the same event. Wrath is not tribulation. Wrath is punishment and tribulation is affliction. Are you better then the millions of Christians who were killed during the 250 years of persecution that were done to the early church? What about the more then 250,000 of your brothers and sisters who were put in prison, or hanged or tortured or had acid thrown into their faces last year just because they love Jesus? What makes you think that you are to good go through or endure that kind of tribulation? They were Christians just like you are. How are you any different then they are. What makes you believe that God would not allow you to go through that kind of tribulation like He did the more then 250,000 of His other people last year. You want to know how horrible Christians are treated in other parts of the world go to the "Voice of the Martyrs" web site and look at the faces of those young girls who have had acid thrown into their faces because they were Christians. And guess what? They still love Jesus.

You should re-think your position on the words wrath and tribulation because God may choose to allow you to go through a time of tribulation like He allowed His people to go through last year and is allowing this year. Did you know that a Muslim will hold a Christian over an open frame letting the fire lick and burn their chest as a way to force convert them. What about Columbine most of those who were killed were Christian? What about that girl? The killer stuck a gun in her face and asked her if she believed in Christ. As soon as she said yes he shot her right then. Was that tribulation or wrath? Did those Christians who died last year in the name of Jesus suffer the wrath of God or was it tribulation? If tribulation like that is also the wrath of God then the bible is a lie. Yes the bible tells us that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God but at the same time the word of God also tells us to count all tribulation as joy.

[nChrist]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (ASV)13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 (ASV)50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 57 but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

[Bold Believer]

***Sigh***

This is what happens when non-Biblical terms are applied to Scriptural events: CONFUSION.

CONFUSION IS FROM THE DEVIL.

"The rapture" is specific point in time during the Second Coming when the bodies of living Believers are changed from mortal to immortal. No more, no less. So YES, there will be a rapture.

It occurs at the Second Coming, ON THE LAST DAY. Not before. It is part and parcel of the resurrection of the dead and occurs a nanosecond after the raising of the previously dead saints.

[CSLewis]

***Sigh***

This is what happens when non-Biblical terms are applied to Scriptural events: CONFUSION.

CONFUSION IS FROM THE DEVIL.

"The rapture" is specific point in time during the Second Coming when the bodies of living Believers are changed from mortal to immortal. No more, no less. So YES, there will be a rapture.

It occurs at the Second Coming, ON THE LAST DAY. Not before. It is part and parcel of the resurrection of the dead and occurs a nanosecond after the raising of the previously dead saints.

No - historical context please folks! Revelations was written to people of that time in code that was applicable and understood by those people and churches to whom it was written even Jesus said that those were the last days- and Paul certainly thought so too- Nero was the Antichrist -

Besides if we are always looking up to the

sky for Christs return we miss Him here on earth in the hearts and minds of our brothers and sisters that make up the Body.

[MorningGlory]

***Sigh***

This is what happens when non-Biblical terms are applied to Scriptural events: CONFUSION.

CONFUSION IS FROM THE DEVIL.

"The rapture" is specific point in time during the Second Coming when the bodies of living Believers are changed from mortal to immortal. No more, no less. So YES, there will be a rapture.

It occurs at the Second Coming, ON THE LAST DAY. Not before. It is part and parcel of the resurrection of the dead and occurs a nanosecond after the raising of the previously dead saints.

No - historical context please folks! Revelations was written to people of that time in code that was applicable and understood by those people and churches to whom it was written even Jesus said that those were the last days- and Paul certainly thought so too- Nero was the Antichrist -

Besides if we are always looking up to the

sky for Christs return we miss Him here on earth in the hearts and minds of our brothers and sisters that make up the Body.

So you don't believe in the Rapture or the Second Coming?

[ellarose]

***Sigh***

This is what happens when non-Biblical terms are applied to Scriptural events: CONFUSION.

CONFUSION IS FROM THE DEVIL.

"The rapture" is specific point in time during the Second Coming when the bodies of living Believers are changed from mortal to immortal. No more, no less. So YES, there will be a rapture.

It occurs at the Second Coming, ON THE LAST DAY. Not before. It is part and parcel of the resurrection of the dead and occurs a nanosecond after the raising of the previously dead saints.

No - historical context please folks! Revelations was written to people of that time in code that was applicable and understood by those people and churches to whom it was written even Jesus said that those were the last days- and Paul certainly thought so too- Nero was the Antichrist -

Besides if we are always looking up to the

sky for Christs return we miss Him here on earth in the hearts and minds of our brothers and sisters that make up the Body.

So why are we still here if all of this has already happened......?

[Massorite]

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

I did not vote for this topic because I have not studied Scripture yet on this topic. I do not lean on my own understanding however when I read this verse, I see that we will not be with the Lord until the day He comes down from Heaven to get us. So, when we die, we do stay in the ground, dead but not disheveled because we know nothing while we are dead:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James Version)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

So, we have no knowledge of time and no knowledge of anything until the day our Lord comes to get us and we will meet with Him in the air.

Do I have that right?

It's still confusing to me because whenever I heard people telling me that I will be in the ground until the day He returns, I used to become furious because I wanted to be with Him right away and thought that was unfair. But now that I see that Scripture says the dead know nothing, well that makes me feel a bit better about this. If this is the way it will happen.

Yes you got it very right! As the bible does not say "when you die you will go to heaven" anywhere. Those that like to believe that we do go to heaven as soon as we die quote scripture that says "To be absent from the body is to be in the presents of the Lord". The problem with that is the fact that 2 words are ignored in that verse. They are " Willing Rather". In the verse Paul is telling us that we are "WILLING RATHER to be absent from the body" When the word "Willing Rather" are left out of the quote it changes the meaning of the verse. It turns the verse into a falsly quoted verse and it is sin to mislead any one by omiting words of a verse to change the meaning of it.

[Massorite]

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

I did not vote for this topic because I have not studied Scripture yet on this topic. I do not lean on my own understanding however when I read this verse, I see that we will not be with the Lord until the day He comes down from Heaven to get us. So, when we die, we do stay in the ground, dead but not disheveled because we know nothing while we are dead:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James Version)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

So, we have no knowledge of time and no knowledge of anything until the day our Lord comes to get us and we will meet with Him in the air.

Do I have that right?

It's still confusing to me because whenever I heard people telling me that I will be in the ground until the day He returns, I used to become furious because I wanted to be with Him right away and thought that was unfair. But now that I see that Scripture says the dead know nothing, well that makes me feel a bit better about this. If this is the way it will happen.

Yes you got it very right! As the bible does not say "when you die you will go to heaven" anywhere. Those that like to believe that we do go to heaven as soon as we die quote scripture that says "To be absent from the body is to be in the presents of the Lord". The problem with that is the fact that 2 words are ignored in that verse. They are " Willing Rather". In the verse Paul is telling us that we are "WILLING RATHER to be absent from the body" When the word "Willing Rather" are left out of the quote it changes the meaning of the verse. It turns the verse into a falsly quoted verse and it is sin to mislead any one by omiting words of a verse to change the meaning of it.

Well, I trust 100% that the Holy Spirit is leading me when I read Scripture because I always pray beforehand. I trust our Father completely so I never doubt this. So, when I see that the dead know nothing and then I see from reading Scripture that God's time is not the same as ours, I can keep hope by knowing that when I am in the ground, I will know nothing but when He comes for me, I will not recognize how long it took. It will only seem like a split second. And to have the privilege of spending Eternity with Him will make the thought of waiting right before death all worthwhile

And to be honest, I don't think that I will even have that thought again once I'm with Him

Right again JamiLea. When you die you will close your eyes and the next time you open them you will be rising up to meet Jesus with the help of a reaper IE an angel.