The purpose driven church

[Yahsway]

Well Serotta, cant argue with that. I for one believe America has plenty of churches, but overseas would be great.

I also believe more need to be in leadership positions, maybe this program would help some pastors who seem to be more afraid of losing their "positions" instead of doing what they should as disciple and mentor others to lead as well.

As far as assisting the poor and sick, i also cant wait for this to happen. Ive always said that if these mega churches did that, we would have less people dependant on entitlement programs. Maybe then my tithe money would go for that instead of pool tables, pin-ball machines, elaborate music and lighting systems,ect.. Sounds like Warren wants to get back to the way the origional disciples and apostles way of doing things. Im all for that!

Educate the next generation? Well, again, I do not like the public school system so you have no argument here. Most all my friends home-school their children, and i wish I had now. I always had to work outside the home, my kids were either in day care while i worked or in school. So, if this program of Rick Warrens will help more moms stay home and give their children good wholesome christian education, and also allow for the fathers of these children to better themselves and make more money, and to assist the single and widowed parents then yes im all for it. How long do you think it would take?

And if this becomes globel, wow. can you think of those implications. No one in need, our daily bread taken care of, our finances taken care of, no more having to plant churches, the sick,and afflicated taken care of, Leaders in right standing, kind of reminds me of that old song by one of the beatles called "IMAGINE".The whole world living in peace. That sure sounds like a big job for anyone.

But hey, I know when the Prince of Peace Yeshua comes we will have all that, I just didint know it was even possable before he came. will the psuedo-christ offer the same thing? And, if there is going to be a rapture, why even bother, seeing as the"church" will be gone , unless we are leaving it all to the ones left. Lets ask Rick warren, if he believes in the rapture and if so, if he would sign a legal agreement leaving this utopian empire to those left behind.And for that matter, how about lets see if all the "churches" will do that,they wont need it where they are going, and it would help all those here to face what lies ahead of them Just a thought.

Oh well, Yeshua said beware when men cry PEACE and SAFETY, for then sudden destruction comes. I think ill heed His word and Purpose, not Mr. Warrens

[serotta]

Yahways said:

And if this becomes globel, wow. can you think of those implications. No one in need, our daily bread taken care of, our finances taken care of, no more having to plant churches, the sick,and afflicated taken care of, Leaders in right standing, kind of reminds me of that old song by one of the beatles called "IMAGINE".The whole world living in peace. That sure sounds like a big job for anyone.

See this is the sarcasm that I am just not able to comprehend. Why do you single Saddleback out for your ridicule? Are all mission programs to be scorned or just Saddleback? Did you go to the webpage I referenced? Christian mission work where there was none before. But that's wrong for some reason? And just what qualifies as a"mega-church" anyway? Is the size of the congregation somehow inversely proportional to its Godliness? I do not understand one bit.

[Yahsway]

Im sorry serotta, I was being sarcastic, I apologize, but there is a method to my madness.

Let me give you a brief history of myself, then maybe you can see where Im coming from. Then maybe not, but here goes:

I was very active in my local congregation the assembly of God. 10 years worship leader, 1 year youth director, 10 years drama and dance teacher, and so on and so forth. Paid my tithes, do not regret that one bit, but I do resent the fact that there were around 100 in congregation, all of us I know paying tremendous tithes (Husband collected on Sunday Morning) and never having but 3 meetings the whole time I was there on where the money went.

okay, the last of the 3 meetings we had on $30.oo went into missions that year. Now mind you, the only 3 meetings we had were for the year prior to the meetings so I have no idea if and what money was given to missions. Now, when I say we tithed, WE TITHED. our last year there, my husband and I gave over $15,000.00. So Im looking over the light bill, the water bill, nothing owed on the building, the phone bill and general building things. Well, we always had bake sales or funraisers or more money out of our pocket for the youth programs. So a mere $30.00 goes to missions. Hmmmm. I start thinking, something is wrong here.

Then finally, pastor gets 40 days of purpose, we read, fast, pray, Then we are all hit up for more money this time for pin-ball machines, some pool tables, ect.. The youth pastor said we would bring more youth in with these "implements of worldly worship" Sorry, anyway, in the meantime, Several of the people in the congregation asked me about our piano and drum players. Senn them in the bars on Sat. night at the local due drop in. So, I, being under submission to my Pastor bring this up to his attention.

To make a long story short, I am not there anymore but they still are. It seems once you start asking questions you turn out to be the bad guy.

I am one who truly advocates missions. The churches in America could do with a lot less and give to overseas missions, and the pastors could also do with a lot less. There is something wrong when a pastor lives more lavishly than his congregation. and this is happening in a lot of different churches. One thing I will commend Rick Warren for id that I do not think He lives in a 5 million dollar mansion as some of the other big-name clergy do. And he doesnt have the need to dress in the finest of clothes.

But I am concerned about the fact that he seems to line up with so many others of today who do not preach repentance, and to be seperate from worldly things, and this Im okay, your okay, and everybody is okay mentality. This is not true. Not everyone is okay. We live in a very sick society that needs to hear the message that hey, you are a sinner, seperated from God. repent, turn around and walk this way. Its all happy, clappy, feel good message, Now there is time for these things, but lets seek out the lost. How will we know they are lost? By their fruits, connected to this world and everything it has to offer.

Do you think maybe the reason pastors are compromising their messages today, mixing worldly things with Godly things is that they believe this will attract more of the people in the world to come into the sanctuary because they feel "less threatened" and they wont have to fall under any conviction if we dont tell them about sin and needing a savior and needing to live holy, but just offer them what they want . And maybe by doing this, they will open their wallets, and more money will come in to fund the gospel and missions overseas. Thats fine and everything, but in the meantime, what happens to the ones living here in this nation. This to, our Beautiful America is also a mission field.

I am not attacking just Saddelback church. Please look around at a lot of the other churches. Weve become so enamored with the prosperity message that it hardly leaves room for anything else. I believe Robert Schullar is Warrens Mentor along with C.Peter Wagner. Does this tell you anything?

We here every year "GOds doing a new thing" or Theres a paradiam shift in the body of Christ", Name it and Claim it, Get your Blessings. ect...

When are we going to Bless God? When are we going to minister unto God? When are we going to give up our man-pleasing missions for the sake of a God-pleasing mission? And why does it cost so much to go and here Warren speak? Why dont they just take up a love offering?

I was raised a good ole Southern Baptist. Baptized by fire by the holy spirit in the assemblies of God. But i just like to refer to myself as a believer in Him and Him only . The seeker-sensitive assemblies of today are just doing what they did many years ago. There is nothing new under the sun.

No, the size of an assembly does not matter. The quality of that assembly matters.Yes missions do matter and we are here in this great nation for that purpose I believe. Our purpose should be to lay down our lives if need be for each other, killing our flesh daily, renewing our mind to have the mind of Christ not the mind of the world. Giving up all if need be for the gospels sake.

[Guest shadow2b]

-ya know this is soooooo--SAD---TOO many "church"people will "FIND" any reason

-to "Justify"their Departure from the clear-Principles"of GOD'S WORD...IT really is Heartbreaking....IT has already been stated that There will be those that Depart from "Sound-Doctrine"---They had rather "Hear"what is pleasing to the ears--Pleasant to the eyes--Easy to follow--SAD---SAD---SAD---IT seems like $$Money & Numbers{in the pew}are the "driving" force behind the ?New-Age"New-Direction--new Purpose--ALL-Inclusive--Non-Exclusionary--"Mega-Church"??-I just can't "Find"any-where in "Scripture"that supports or even mentions arcades--pool-tables-foose-ball-or any other "Worldly"games--that *Draw*ALL men to GOD---

-RATHER--------

-Psalms 127:3

-Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb 

-is his reward.

-Eph.6:vs.4--------

-And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them

-up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

-Prov.22:vs.6------

-Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he

-will not depart from it.

-Prov.6:vss.20-21------

-My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy

-mother:Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck

-Prov.15:vs.5-------

-A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth

-reproof is prudent.

-Prov.19:vs.27-------

-Cease,my son,to hear the instruction that causeth to err

-from the words of knowledge

-Psalms 1:1.Thru.4-----

-Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in

-the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the

-law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be

-like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his

-season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.The

-ungodly are not so:but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

-Colossians 3:20

-Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

-SOooooooooo--MY Question IS: WHICH is RIGHT??GOD'S WORD OR pool-tables--foose-ball-games--& WHICH is it that "DRAWS-MEN"TO JESUS??-Worldly Games--arcades OR -THE HOLY-SPIRIT??--

-John.15:vs.26------

-But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,

-even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 

-John 15:vs.27------

-And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

[Spiritual Warrior]

I agree, I've asked for an interpretation of II Timothy 4:3 several times. And curiously the ones who agree with the seeker sensitive message haven't answered me one time. Hmmmmmm. Makes me wonder.

[tsth]

You are SO right Gary. Bring them in with entertainment and goodies, don't bring them to the Word, lest they get offended.

Jeremiah 5:30 "An astonishing and horrible thing Has been committed in the land: 31 The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?

Jeremiah 8:6 I listened and heard, But they do not speak aright. No man repented of his wickedness, Saying, 'What have I done?' Everyone turned to his own course, As the horse rushes into the battle.

Jeremiah 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, They are dismayed and taken. Behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord; So what wisdom do they have? 10 Therefore I will give their wives to others, And their fields to those who will inherit them; Because from the least even to the greatest Everyone is given to covetousness; From the prophet even to the priest Everyone deals falsely. 11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly, Saying, 'Peace, peace!' When there is no peace. 12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? No! They were not at all ashamed, Nor did they know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; In the time of their punishment They shall be cast down," says the Lord.

Jeremiah 23:14 Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem: They commit adultery and walk in lies; They also strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one turns back from his wickedness. All of them are like Sodom to Me, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah. 15 "Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets: 'Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, And make them drink the water of gall; For from the prophets of Jerusalem Profaneness has gone out into all the land.' " 16 Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; They speak a vision of their own heart, Not from the mouth of the Lord. 17 They continually say to those who despise Me, 'The Lord has said, "You shall have peace" '; And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say, 'No evil shall come upon you.' "

In His Truth,

Suzanne

[serotta]

spiritual warrior said:

I agree, I've asked for an interpretation of II Timothy 4:3 several times. And curiously the ones who agree with the seeker sensitive message haven't answered me one time. Hmmmmmm. Makes me wonder. 

While you may have asked the question, you have no way shown how that verse applies to the teachings in Purpose Driven Life or Purpose Driven Church or Saddleback Church or Rick Warren. Don't give me examples of how it's been misapplied. Please give me specific references out of Pastor Warrens books that show that his teachings are not accurate or that they follow his own desires. PDL is not based on the promise of prosperity nor does it place anything above God.

[Spiritual Warrior]

avoiding preaching on sin, hell and judgement day in order to make people feel more "comfortable".

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears;" - II Tim. 4:3

Warren states in his book "The Purpose Driven Church" on page 146 that their seeker groups are formed exclusively for evangelism, they provide a nonthreatening environment (in other words don't mention hell & don't convict them of their sins because they might actually get saved but we don't care about that we just wan't them to come. multiply our Church in a "friendly fun-loving atmosphere)

and on page 48, Warren states, "you grow large if that is all you care about" that is not true churches are growing rapidly because they compromise the Bible to fit the needs of the congregation (customers).

Warren also states that He refuses to debate or discuss what method works best yet on page 255 he all but makes fun of small town preachers. Saying, "Most church services move at a snail's pace." "Unbelievers have all but fallen asleep"

[Guest shadow2b]

-Warren states in his book "The Purpose Driven Church" on page 146 that their seeker groups are formed exclusively for evangelism, they provide a nonthreatening environment (in other words don't mention hell & don't convict them of their sins because they might actually get saved but we don't care about that we just wan't them to come. multiply our Church in a "friendly fun-loving atmosphere)

and on page 48, Warren states, "you grow large if that is all you care about" that is not true churches are growing rapidly because they compromise the Bible to fit the needs of the congregation (customers).

-WeLLLLLLLLL, HOWDY Warrior---VERY good insight--I Reckon those quotes of warrens books on the {purpose-Driven-Church??} Ought to pretty well,sum up the "spirit"behind the teachings of that{PDL}church??-gimme a BREAK----HOW can Christians on these boards FALL for & In some cases "VIOLENTLY" DEFEND this IDIOTIC-UNGODLY-Garbage?? IT is absolutely Amazing just how far somebody will GO to "Defend-their current-feel-good-all-inclusionary-non-exclusionary-non-confrontational-gospel-promoted by the Religious-guru-of the moment"??--

-HOW -HEART-BREAKING----SAD---SAD---SAD-

[tsth]

I think the Purpose Driven church fits in very nicely with the ABC Church!

Attendance

Building

Cash

In His Love,

Suzanne