Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child

[Axxman]

i really do feel you need some help with the hitting issue axx ... your putting how you were raised as how everyone spanks their child. and that isn't true. i think what really bothers me when you continually argue is that your trying to force your viewpoint on the majority of everyone in the thread .. and feel that everyone but you is wrong...as for picking your fights .. i don't think you know how to. look at the movie thread...it was NOT started for christians to sit there and argue (quite poorly) about the politics of the movie. Not a wise fight if you ask me .....

I sure hope your not just here (as i've been gathering) to start debates. We are here to fellowship with eachother. Have you ever wondered why so many christians argue with you on your viewpoints?

I've said what I want, you enjoy this debating/arguing as a fun game. Saddens me .... praying for you. Take Care

okay...these are not "fights" or "battles" as you call them...these are simply discussions between adults on various topics some of which we agree on, some of which we don't. I agree a GREAT deal with the VAST MAJORITY of people on Worthy Boards, on a majority of topics.

I don't see ANY problem with responding to comments made on a topic, especially if they are in response to something I said. Its just discussion. Most Christian conservatives agree with me a great deal on a variety of topics...spanking not being one of them. However, I will admit, on the other topic you mentioned it seems the conservatives have gone quite mad. I usually find a great deal of likemindedness amongst christian conservatives on the topic of liberal ideology...so that thread has me a bit confused...lol.

Lastly...were all friends and relatives in Christ. So I appreciate your care and prayers in my regard...

[Smalcald]

Spanking may work for some kids it may not for others.

We have not had to utilize it as a form of discipline, but I may if we had a more rebellious child. I do question its effectiveness though. It seems the people who are always spanking their kids don't have very well behaved kids; I look for results not methods.

Also it seems that after the age of five I can't really see kids caring about getting their butts swatted, I think they would respond much more to a major loss of privileges, spanking would actually be to lenient in many cases. It hurts for a little while then it is over, versus staying in your room all day on a Saturday or not letting them see any friends for a week.

[mekeelin_ujohn]

I guess since spanking differs in every household, even Christian ones, opinions about whether it is right ow wrong will differ.

I also think it's hard to look at a baby and think about hitting it, those thoughts may come easier when the kid starts testing the waters.

Also, I thought the Conversation was pretty civil, I didn't think anyone was picking a fight. If there wasn't differing opinions it wouldn't be very interesting.

[Guest LadyC]

smalclad, i didn't have to spank mine all that often. but when i did, it was usually when all other forms of discipline had failed. the spanking was almost always effective at stopping the undesirable behaviour, particularly in my oldest and most stubborn daughter. my younger daughter was always a people pleaser and didn't need as much disciplinary action.

[exrockstar]

by the way some of these posts sound it seems as though many here havent moved on from their childhood experiences.

move on....it's 2008

[deut31:12]

smalclad, i didn't have to spank mine all that often. but when i did, it was usually when all other forms of discipline had failed. the spanking was almost always effective at stopping the undesirable behaviour, particularly in my oldest and most stubborn daughter. my younger daughter was always a people pleaser and didn't need as much disciplinary action.

LadyC,

I agree with you here, as well with other comments previously made by other, I didn't have to spank mine as much either.

When you step back and read all of the posts you see an understanding that many people through time have had a hard time coming to an understanding on about this topic. Everybody has their own views, ideas, and experiences with spanking children and many times people press their stands upon others.

First, spanking is in the bible. The word itself is not in there, but that is the general idea that God was trying to teach us in raising our children. God has taken a very large stand in how children are to mind their parents. We find in 2Ki 2:22-24 where 42 children were killed when God sent a bear to kill them for their behavior. Also this example:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. - Deuteronomy 21:18-21

I know these are extreme examples, but they were examples that were in effect during the observing of the Old Testament.

These examples, coupled with other scriptures of using the rod of correction, should give us a picture that it is very important to raise our children with discipline that my at times require using the rod of correction.

What has happened is that there are parents who have abused the position of using the rod to literally beating their children and because of that many associate spanking with beating and spanking our children has been outlawed. But, that is like outlawing eating because people are glutenous. The rod of correction is for the purpose of enforcing our instruction to our children, not for beating them out of frustration.

I have seen what happens in households here there is no instruction, no correction, and no rod of correction. Their children grow up little monsters. If you don't believe me come see my neighbors.

God gave us this tool to help us raise our children because of this statement:

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. - Proverbs 22:15

Foolishness is bound in the heart of our children. That is why there are the "terrible 2's". Statistics are showing that is why we have children that criminals, killing each other, rebellious, implacable, abuse their own parents and siblings, etc., because they are being found out that they do not fear authority because there is nobody who will do anything about it. This is why the spanking laws have been lifted and everybody who has a record for spanking their children has it wiped clean, except those who were beaten/abused.

Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. - Colossians 3:20

Remember, not 100% of unspanked children will grow up bad and not all spanked children will grow up good, but our children are given to us for us to raise in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. If we do not then we are the ones who are held accountable to how they turn out. We learn this from what happened to Eli. God gave us the tools in how to raise them regardless of how I feel or how others feel.

A life lesson I learned, my mother used to beat us when we were young. She grew out of that and realized her mistake. She then married my stepfather who was a worse abuser than she ever was. We were out of that when I was a teenager, but I learned from it that I would never do that to my children. I am glad I found God, the bible, and my church before I had children. Through them I learned what it was that God expects from us and how to raise our children through discipline. If it is done correctly it will work.

[Axxman]

Hey Deut31:12...I'd like to address a couple of things you said, get your take. Obviously I'm on the non-spanking side of this discussion...and a few things you said caught my eye.

First, spanking is in the bible. The word itself is not in there, but that is the general idea that God was trying to teach us in raising our children. God has taken a very large stand in how children are to mind their parents. We find in 2Ki 2:22-24 where 42 children were killed when God sent a bear to kill them for their behavior. Also this example:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. - Deuteronomy 21:18-21

I think its important to point out that the parents are not in charge of administering these violent punishments. I also think its important to note that we have done away with the barbaric practice of stoning rebellious children. Why is that? If we can do away with stoning, can't we also do away with beating our children with the rod of correction?

I have seen what happens in households here there is no instruction, no correction, and no rod of correction. Their children grow up little monsters. If you don't believe me come see my neighbors.

God gave us this tool to help us raise our children because of this statement:

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. - Proverbs 22:15

Have you never seen children who are spanked misbehave? I have seen spanked children act very rebellious. How does the scripture you provided hold up? Obviously the hitting of a child with the "rod of correction" is not a foolproof plan. Seems kind of a big deal if the bible tells us that hitting a child with the rod of correction will drive foolishness far from them...and yet they still behave foolishly. Then top it off with the fact that plenty of children who are not spanked turn out just fine, with Godly principles and ideals. Isn't it possible that people are mistaking the intent of the "rod" ...or is the bible just being facetious?

Remember, not 100% of unspanked children will grow up bad and not all spanked children will grow up good, but our children are given to us for us to raise in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. If we do not then we are the ones who are held accountable to how they turn out. We learn this from what happened to Eli. God gave us the tools in how to raise them regardless of how I feel or how others feel.

You see, this is a problem. If the bible tells you to beat (thats the bible's word, not mine) your child with a rod...and save them from sheol. Or beat them to drive away foolishness. Or beat them and they get wisdom. Beat them and they won't bring their mothers shame. Those are statements that the bible supposedly promises. Those are not "spank them and HOPE they turn out right" phrases. Yet, we ALL know that spanking your children is NOT foolproof. Spanked kids don't always turn out right. Obviously, neither do all kids who are not spanked. So isn;t it possible that we are to take a different meaning, a different message from "the rod of correction." One that makes the bible true, and allows the bible to hold fast to those promises it makes in regards to saving our children from Sheol, or giving our children wisdom, or making their mothers proud. Clearly, spanking or not spanking alone, isn't the answer...therefore clearly the bible MUST be asking us to do more than simply hit our kids.

[exrockstar]

Hey Deut31:12...I'd like to address a couple of things you said, get your take. Obviously I'm on the non-spanking side of this discussion...and a few things you said caught my eye.

First, spanking is in the bible. The word itself is not in there, but that is the general idea that God was trying to teach us in raising our children. God has taken a very large stand in how children are to mind their parents. We find in 2Ki 2:22-24 where 42 children were killed when God sent a bear to kill them for their behavior. Also this example:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. - Deuteronomy 21:18-21

I think its important to point out that the parents are not in charge of administering these violent punishments. I also think its important to note that we have done away with the barbaric practice of stoning rebellious children. Why is that? If we can do away with stoning, can't we also do away with beating our children with the rod of correction?

"beating" is bad.

Discipline is different.

[deut31:12]

Hey Deut31:12...I'd like to address a couple of things you said, get your take. Obviously I'm on the non-spanking side of this discussion...and a few things you said caught my eye.

First, spanking is in the bible. The word itself is not in there, but that is the general idea that God was trying to teach us in raising our children. God has taken a very large stand in how children are to mind their parents. We find in 2Ki 2:22-24 where 42 children were killed when God sent a bear to kill them for their behavior. Also this example:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. - Deuteronomy 21:18-21

I think its important to point out that the parents are not in charge of administering these violent punishments. I also think its important to note that we have done away with the barbaric practice of stoning rebellious children. Why is that? If we can do away with stoning, can't we also do away with beating our children with the rod of correction?

I have seen what happens in households here there is no instruction, no correction, and no rod of correction. Their children grow up little monsters. If you don't believe me come see my neighbors.

God gave us this tool to help us raise our children because of this statement:

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. - Proverbs 22:15

Have you never seen children who are spanked misbehave? I have seen spanked children act very rebellious. How does the scripture you provided hold up? Obviously the hitting of a child with the "rod of correction" is not a foolproof plan. Seems kind of a big deal if the bible tells us that hitting a child with the rod of correction will drive foolishness far from them...and yet they still behave foolishly. Then top it off with the fact that plenty of children who are not spanked turn out just fine, with Godly principles and ideals. Isn't it possible that people are mistaking the intent of the "rod" ...or is the bible just being facetious?

Remember, not 100% of unspanked children will grow up bad and not all spanked children will grow up good, but our children are given to us for us to raise in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. If we do not then we are the ones who are held accountable to how they turn out. We learn this from what happened to Eli. God gave us the tools in how to raise them regardless of how I feel or how others feel.

You see, this is a problem. If the bible tells you to beat (thats the bible's word, not mine) your child with a rod...and save them from sheol. Or beat them to drive away foolishness. Or beat them and they get wisdom. Beat them and they won't bring their mothers shame. Those are statements that the bible supposedly promises. Those are not "spank them and HOPE they turn out right" phrases. Yet, we ALL know that spanking your children is NOT foolproof. Spanked kids don't always turn out right. Obviously, neither do all kids who are not spanked. So isn;t it possible that we are to take a different meaning, a different message from "the rod of correction." One that makes the bible true, and allows the bible to hold fast to those promises it makes in regards to saving our children from Sheol, or giving our children wisdom, or making their mothers proud. Clearly, spanking or not spanking alone, isn't the answer...therefore clearly the bible MUST be asking us to do more than simply hit our kids.

..and not everybody who reads the bible and is preached to will be a Christian. Looking at the way that you see things is that if a spanked child turns out bad then either God is wrong or those scriptures are not talking about spanking.

My point in using the scriptures I did from the OT is to show that God is serious when it comes to the actions of our children and that we are responsible if we didn't try to do anything about it.

We did not do away with stoning children. God did and I would be very careful about calling God's law barbaric. Just because people do not agree with what the bible teaches does not make it wrong.

Right now, regardless of anybodies life experiences of what parents or family did to them in the form of spanking, what needs to be done is the will of God on this matter.

Isn't it possible that people are mistaking the intent of the "rod" ...or is the bible just being facetious?

Are you saying that God was joking? First you call God's law barbaric and then you say he was joking. No wonder you are having so much trouble with this. You don't take the bible seriously.

We have instruction on how were are deal with our children before God and we see what happened through the examples laid out before us through the scriptures.

Seems kind of a big deal if the bible tells us that hitting a child with the rod of correction will drive foolishness far from them...and yet they still behave foolishly.

It is interesting how that you will question the effectiveness of the scriptures before you would question the possibility that maybe somebody isn't doing the correction correctly.

Then top it off with the fact that plenty of children who are not spanked turn out just fine, with Godly principles and ideals.

With everything, there needs to be proper application. You are only dealing with this in shades of white and black. Not every time a child acts up are they supposed to be beaten with a rod. Do you understand that? I ask because you are so opposed to spanking and the things you say against it. The spanking part comes when you have a VERY rebellious that won't take any form of correction. Spanking is the last resort. Because I used this method when my children were young they don't need to be spanked any more and they are 8 & 10 years old. They grew up knowing what discipline was and they mind and respect us and others. Minded, they still do get into trouble, but other forms are used now and they are not "problem children".

You have to keep all of this in its proper perspective and not blanket all decisions from one way to the next to cause you to back way out of what God intended to be done.

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. - Proverbs 23:13-14

This is not the same beating as in what is called child abuse. It is letting us know that spanking our kids will not kill them, but will help to save their souls as they will learn what the will of God is and how to obey authority.

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. - Proverbs 13:24

This is God's wisdom, not man's.

Edited July 21, 2008 by deut31:12

[mekeelin_ujohn]

I still wonder about using proverbs as evidence that it is biblical to spank. Our pastor has preached about Solomon and his influence on proverbs. And since we are supposed to read the bible in it's entirety, shouldn't we then take into account that solomon's kid turned into a horrible person?

I guess I'm still wondering if we actually spank because it was the way we were raised.