Question

[HAZARD]

Judas was at one time a saved man. He had the Holy Spirit and power like the other apostles and he was a sucessful preacher and healer like them (Matt. 10:1-20; Mark 6:7-13).

He had his name WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE in Heaven as prived by Acts 1:20 with Psalms 69:25-29.

He fell from the apostleship by transgression (Acts 1:15-25).

It was not untill the end of Christs ministry that Judas began to pilfer and to grow cold in his love for Christ. It was not until the last supper that the devil entered into him, that is, became united with him in the same crime. It was two days before the passover that he put into the heart of Judas to go to the enemies of Jesus to betray him. into their hands (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2). It was at this time that he openly broke with Christ and saught opportunity to betray Him.

Judas was sorry afterwards for his betrayal (Matt. 27:3-5).

He could have repented and been forgiven as much as any of the others who cursed, denied Christ, and fled like cowards in the test.

But being of a disposition to do so, he brooded over his fall and yielded to temptation to commit suicide.

His name was then removed from the book of life

And, Peter denied Jesus three times but he was accepted.

Hi 'angelique.'

Yes, peter denied jesus but the difference between Peter and Judas is Peter repented and did not commit suicide.

"And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly. (Matt. 26:75).

Judas comitted suicide and his place was taken by another.

"Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (ACTS 1:16-20, 23-26).

[Guest]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

[HAZARD]

Hazard,

Where does it say Judas' name was removed from the Book of Life? (You didn't give a reference with that statement ) More specifically though, removal of his name BECAUSE he committed suicide?

Thanks Joe for the reply to "Isaiah43:4'

Here it is.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:12.

Jesus Himself acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him Judas was the only one whom He had lost (John 17:12). Christ could not have lost Judas if He never had him to lose. Jesus further testified that to everyone (including Judas) that the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2). Judas had this eternal life as much as the others but he became "lost" later and by "transgression fell" (Acts 1:25).

Haz.

[Guest]

Dear Brother, If I May Just A Thought

Whereas Judas Was An Ungodly Man And "the son of perdition" Or "The Son Of Hell"

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7

All Believers In The Resurrected Jesus Are sons Of God

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father Galatians 4:6

And Jesus Is The The Keeper Of The Brethren

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand John 10:27-28

The LORD Of Hosts Is His Name

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isaiah 54:5

The Keeper Of Our Souls

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 1 Peter 4:19

My LORD My God

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

Be Blessed Beloved Of THE KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4(b)

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:5-6

[~~ angelique ~~]

Hazard,

Where does it say Judas' name was removed from the Book of Life? (You didn't give a reference with that statement ) More specifically though, removal of his name BECAUSE he committed suicide?

Thanks Joe for the reply to "Isaiah43:4'

Here it is.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:12.

Jesus Himself acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him Judas was the only one whom He had lost (John 17:12). Christ could not have lost Judas if He never had him to lose. Jesus further testified that to everyone (including Judas) that the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2). Judas had this eternal life as much as the others but he became "lost" later and by "transgression fell" (Acts 1:25).

Haz.

That still doesn't say that Judas become "lost" because he killed himself. You're saying Judas killed himself, and you're saying Judas went to hell. You also seem to be saying that the first caused the second. I don't find that in Scripture. I'm also not sure I agree that John 17:12 is saying that Judas was saved and then lost his salvation. "Christ could not have lost Judas if He never had him to lose." That's inference and subject to opinion.

In regards to this, why would Judas go to hell for this IF God had appointed him to betray Jesus? It seems to me that if that is so then Judas wasn't even born with a chance. If Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world, then Judas had betrayed him as well since then.

:emot-heartbeat:

[HAZARD]

Dear Brother, If I May Just A Thought

Whereas Judas Was An Ungodly Man And "the son of perdition" Or "The Son Of Hell"

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7

All Believers In The Resurrected Jesus Are sons Of God

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father Galatians 4:6

And Jesus Is The The Keeper Of The Brethren

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand John 10:27-28

The LORD Of Hosts Is His Name

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isaiah 54:5

The Keeper Of Our Souls

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 1 Peter 4:19

My LORD My God

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

Be Blessed Beloved Of THE KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4(b)

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:5-6

Very true Joe. But, as Jesus said, Judas by transgression fell and was finally lost. Instead of repenting he knowingly comitted suicide. Thats different to someone who is ill and not in their full faculties doing it.

The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25) Judas not only had a moral fall but sin caused it. Judas was not always a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for some time. His weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall (John 12:6; Luke 22:5; Matt. 26:14-16). If he had refused to be the treasurer of the first Christian disciples and had frankly told them that money was his weakness, he would have been better off. He had seen Christ escape the mob many times and he no doubt thought that the Lord would escape again and he himself would be 30 pieces of silver better off.

The word diablos translated devil in John 6:70 is also used of men. It literally means adversary. Any human or spirit adversary of Christ is a devil. It is translated "false accusers" (2 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 23, "slanderers" (1 Tim. 3:11), and "devil" elswhere. It teaches that Judas became an adversary, accuser, and slanderer of Christ. He was not a devil from the beginning as many teach. No such statement is foundin the Bible, of Judas, or any one else. Even Satan was not a devil from the beginning. He was in the beginning a sinless angel.

In answer to the other questions.

Jesus fortold to Peter that he would betray Him three times. Peter vehemently denied that he would vever betray Jesus, but when the cock crowed as jesus fortold Peter cursed and denied Jesus. He was not lost because of his sin because he repented. Judas was appointed to betray Jesus. He did betray Jesus. All he had todo was repent. Although he was sorry later that he had betrayed jesus, he borrded over his sin rather than repenting and he fell to the devils temptation to committ suicide. Jeusus later prayed to the Father that of all those the Father had given Him, Jesus had given eternal life, and the only one Jesus had LOST was Judas. Jesus Himself stated that JUDAS WAS LOST.

Its quite simple to understand. To be able to loose something, one must first have it, to be able to loose it?

If you do not have it, you cannot loose it can yo?

[HAZARD]

In the Bible we not only have many passages plainly stating that eternal life can be lost and that the saved who sin will die and be damned, but we have many concrete cases of men, and angels who once had eternal life and were in grace and in favour with God, and who sinned and will be damned in Hell forever, regardless of their sonship, and past union with God in grace.

Classic examples of once saved and in favour with God and then being lost.

Lucifer. Here Lucifer is spoken of as being "perfect in they ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17).

He is now known as Satan and the devil, and over one third of God's angels sinned with him and are to be damned in a Hell especially prepared for them (Matt. 24:41). It would be folly for anyone to argue that they were not once holy and sinless and in God's favour and grace. Angels are definately called "sons of God" (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). These sons of God in Job could not be men, for they were present when God laid the foundations of the Earth long before man was created (Job 38:4-7). If these "sons of God" fell and are to be damned, then the argument of some that if a man is once a son he cannot be lost or else salvation is not salvation and eternal life is not eternal life, is proved to be a false theory. If God will damn some of creation who were in grace and who are called "sons," then He will also damn others if they sin, else God is unjust and a respecter of persons.

Again, Lucifer, created by God is spoken of as being "perfect in they ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17).

Saul, who was in God's favour and who had the Holy Spirit, lost that favour and was destroyed because of sin (1 Chron. 10:13-14). He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal live (1 Sam. 28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). To argue that Saul was never a saved man is to demonstrate a lack of Bible truth. "God gave Saul another heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied (1 Sam. 10:9-13). If this was not an experience of the saved man then it was nothing at all. It is also recorded haw the Spirit of God LEFT HIM WHEN HE SINNED (1 Sam. 16:12-23). Saul went into spiritualism and God said He would cut off the man who did this (Lev. 19:31; 20:6; Deut. 18:11). He was a very humble and godley man to begin with, but he did not end in this way (1 Sam. 10:21-24)

Ananias and Sapphira were both killed by the power of God because of covetousness and lying to the Holy Ghost (acts 5:1-14). That they were once saved is clear from Acts 4:32-5:1, for Ananias and his wife were classed with "the multitude of them that believed" and "were of one heart and one soul . . . as many as were posessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles feet . . . But a certain man [of those who believed and were of one heart andsoul] named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a posession." If these two were believers and had been saved and were in the church, then it cannot be disputed with any degree of honesty that they were once saved and then lost. To deny they were once saved is to deny thruth and it is not worth the price to pay.

Many galatians who were once saved and had "recieved the Spirit" who had "begun in the Spirit" who were "redeemed and justified by faith," and who were "sons" of God by being made free from sin (Gal. 3:2-4; 3:13; 24; 4:4-7; 5:1-26), FELL "from grace" and Christ became "OF NO EFFECT" unto them (Gal. 5:4, 5). They were "removed from Him" and "from grace," so once in grace always in grace is not biblical unless one stays in grace (Gal. 1:6; 3:1-5; 5:1-9). They were plainly told that to go back under the law and into sins of the flesh, meant to "frustrate [cause to fail, nullify, make void] the grace of God" and that in such case they were not in grace and would reap corruption (Gal. 2:21; 5:1-9; 6:7, 8). They were told that if they built again the things of sin that were "once destroyed" they were transgressors and sinners (Gal. 2:17-18). They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the spirit and not fulfilling the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8). Paul did not tell then that if they got in grace their responsibility as to sin was over. He accused them of falling from grace (Gal. 5:4), so such must be possible.

Many other men who were formerly saved have gone back into sin and have been lost. This fact is clear from such statements as these: "some having put away concerning the faith have MADE SHIPWRECK. . . . he hath DENIED THE FAITH. . . . when they begin to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH . . . and TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN . . . But they that will FALL INTO TEMPTATION AND A SNARE, and INTO MANY FOOLISH AND HURTFUL LUSTS, WHICH DROWN MEN IN DESTRUCTION AND PERDITION. . . . they HAVE ERRED FROM THE FAITH. . . . and OVERTHRONE the FAITH OF SOME. . . . If God will preadventure give them REPENTANCE. . . . that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL" (1 Tim. 1"19, 20; 5:8; 5:11-15, 20; 6:1, 10, 21; 2 Tim. 2:18-16).

Each one of the statements above would disprove that doctrin of once in grace and faith always in grace and faith and once saved always saved, but here in 1 and 2 Timothy are many such statements in only two small books of the Bible. False security believers go to any lengthin trying to explain away these simple passages because they so clearly contradict their theory. Some of them go so far as to deliberately mistranslate the Greek and quote self made translations of men to prove that such simple statements do not mean what they say. For example, they mistranslate "they have cast off their first faith" to "they have broken their former promises" as if this proves a person cannot be lost. The Greek word "pistin" from "pistis" is never translated promises out of hundreds of times it is used in the New Testament. It is translated "faith" 222 times and is refered to as having faith in Christ in Rom. 1:5,16, 17; 3:25; 4:5-20; 5:1, 2; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; 3:24-29; Eph. 2:9; 4:5; etc. Thus the "faith" that they made shipwreck" of, "denied," "cast off," "erred from," and did "overthrow" is the true saving faith and has no reference to some promise that the people made themselves. They could not cast off, deny, and make shipwreck of, this saving faith if they had not once had it. They could not get into a snare of the devil AGAIN unless they had once been delivered from him. They could not have "turned aside" AGAIN after Satan, if they had not been following Christ. They could not have ERRED FROM the faith through hurtful lusts that "drowned in destruction and purdition" if they had not been once in the faith and free from such lusts. They could not have their faith OVERTHROWN if they had none to overthrow.

[~~ angelique ~~]

This thread was started because I've been seriously thinking about doing it and was curious if it will cause me to go to hell.

[Guest man]

This thread was started because I've been seriously thinking about doing it

Why?

PM the answer if you want.

You got my ear.

[HAZARD]

What happens if a Christian commits suicide? Do they go to heaven or sent to hell?

Saul and Judas are both recorded in Scripture as sinning, and instead of repenting of their sins just like any other person can do and be forgiven, they committing suicide, and were lost. If we sin and repent we are forgiven. If we sin and commit suicied without repenting then we are lost

Saul, who was in God's favour and who had the Holy Spirit, lost that favour and was destroyed because of sin (1 Chron. 10:13-14). He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal live (1 Sam. 28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). To argue that Saul was never a saved man is to demonstrate a lack of Bible truth. "God gave Saul another heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied (1 Sam. 10:9-13). If this was not an experience of the saved man then it was nothing at all. It is also recorded haw the Spirit of God LEFT HIM WHEN HE SINNED (1 Sam. 16:12-23). Saul went into spiritualism and God said He would cut off the man who did this (Lev. 19:31; 20:6; Deut. 18:11). He was a very humble and godley man to begin with, but he did not end in this way (1 Sam. 10:21-24)

Jesus Himself acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him Judas was the only one whom He had lost (John 17:12). Christ could not have lost Judas if He never had him to lose. Jesus further testified that to everyone (including Judas) that the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2). Judas had this eternal life as much as the others but he became "lost" later and by "transgression fell" (Acts 1:25). Instead of repenting of his sin as Peter, who denied Christ three timed did and was forgiven Judas brooded over his sin and committed suicide.