Seven reasons why people hate reason

[nebula]

Nevertheless the question remains: What is the objective standard by which a Christian measures anything?

The Bible, of course...

But I am thinking you are asking how we determine what is Biblical and what is not?

[HisMindinme]

Nevertheless the question remains: What is the objective standard by which a Christian measures anything?

The original question (the one you've replied to with a question) was rhetorical. So, again -- is it your question that remains or what's behind and driving you to ask it? Look to the source. The motivation for asking: is it His Mind, His Heart, His Spirit in you -or- is it you wanting a debate, an argument, a division, a contention and other like things upon which to feed your lusts?

And so you don't think that I am unaware: God Himself is the yardstick and measure. He is the goal and the target. His Word (both spoken by Him, written down by man by inspiration (Spirit) and in the person of Christ Himself) is our blueprint because it is from Him and trustworthy in all things. It is the goal of what Christ came for: His Spirit (Mind) born in us and us then walking from inwardly that Mind of His instead of our own, which is enslaved and our lusts feed from.

So, again -- look behind your question. What is the source? What is the motivator? What is the driver? I am not here to argue. I am here to stay as unified in the Spirit of God together with you as possible; as much as either of us have the measure of the Spirit of God within us and that we both grow in the Mind of Christ in us. If you feel the same, then say so plainly. If you cannot then perhaps your motivation is clear. I am hopeful and believe you're not here to feed your lusts on debate, division and contention.

Eph 4:12 with a view to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ,

Eph 4:13 until we all may come to the unity of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, ...

Edited July 31, 2008 by HisMindinme

[EricH]

Has anybody in this discussion read the entire articles that were in the OP. They had to be paid for to get them (the ones I referenced were only parital). How can we discuss something that none of us has read in its entirely to get context?

[The Lorax]

Good article.

(Not to deny its usefulness myself, but is it correct to make reason the final authority on an issue?)

Well, by definition, reason can't be the final authority on anything. Reason and logic need some kind of foreign starting point.

In philosophy, there are two kinds of knowledge: synthetic (what we observe) and analytical (what we deduce). You cannot deduce anything without some observational premises to begin with. So in effect, logic and reason are useless by themselves. We need both observation and logic. Science is so effective because it incorporates both.

[HisMindinme]

I asked a very concise question for the purpose of discovering what our common ground is. Please do not put words in my mouth. I do not appreciate it.

Please point to a written statement by me putting words in your mouth (i.e. ascribing to you what you have not written). If I have done so, I will happily and respectfully apologize.

The false assumption I was speaking of in my earlier post is the contention that all reason is humanistic and ungodly. Reason and logic and the ability to think clearly are all part of the Bible student's tool kit. They prevent the honest seeker from being blown about by every wind of doctrine and the innocent from being taken advantage of.

You point to a contention. First, I find no contention (i.e. argument or debate designed to contend or cause division). Second, I will review what I have written to see if I asserted (Vs "contended") that ALL reason and logic are humanistic. I think I have clearly stated that there is reason and logic of the world and of God. The reason and logic of God is flawless and pure because it is His and of Him and Him. The reason of men is death and given to the service of lusts.

Yet, then we seem in agreement. For that I am happy. As for what prevents us from being "blown about", what does the word of God say?

Eph 4:17 Therefore, I say this, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk even as also the rest of the nations walk, in the vanity of their mind,

Eph 4:18 having been darkened in the intellect, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance which is in them because of the hardness of their heart,

Eph 4:19 who, having cast off all feeling, gave themselves up to lust, to the working of all uncleanness with greediness.

First, Paul points out: "The Nations" (non-believers) have a trait or commonality that we share: We walk (live, talk, act out) in the vanity (worthlessness) of our MIND. The core of our issue begins and is focused in that part of us: OUR MIND. It is our mind that is enslaved.

Second, Paul points out some aspects of what has led to the enslavement: A) We cast off all feeling. The word feeling is pointing at an inability or lack of capacity to sense pain. Thus, one step on the road to the enslavement of our mind is to overwhelm our capacity to feel pain from doing what is sinful with the pleasures of lust. This leads to: B) "gave themselves up to lust". It is the lusts of our flesh that enslave our minds. Our thoughts then become enslaved to lusts, where the mind is goaded and commanded into thinking whatever the flesh needs in order to feed chemical lusts. Thus, we don't think what we do because we're free-willed and free-thinking -- NO -- we think what we think and feel what we feel (emotional response) at the behest and command and to the feeding and pleasing of the lusts of the flesh.

Finally, Paul points out how ignorance is a grand tool in the hands of Satan and men alike to keep us in the chains of our slavery. The chains are strengthened because of several things including: A) Our love of pleasure rather than light and B) Our love of self-righteousness rather than the righteousness of God. The trap and enslavement of our minds to fulfilling the lusts and pleasures of our flesh is dark, insidious, self-delusional, self-deceptive and an ever tightening web of thoughts with ONE single design: To keep us trapped and feeding the pleasures and lusts.

Luk 8:14 And those falling in the thorn bushes, these are those hearing, but under cares and riches and pleasures of life, moving along, they are choked, and do not bear to maturity.

2Ti 3:2 For men will be lovers of themselves, money-lovers, braggarts, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3 without natural feeling, unyielding, slanderers, without self-control, savage, haters of good,

2Ti 3:4 betrayers, reckless, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Ti 3:5 having a form of godliness, but denying the power of it; even turn away from these.

2Ti 3:6 For of these are those creeping into houses and leading silly women captive, the ones having been heaped with sins, being led away by various lusts,

2Ti 3:7 always learning, but never being able to come to a full knowledge of the truth.

Thus, "always learning" (reason and logic) is not the guide. Such things are a tool and a good one, but they are NOT the baseline. The baseline is the very mind and thoughts of God Himself. I pray that you and I can find agreement in such things and not division.

[Fraught]

I once had a professor tell me that whenever I spot a faulty assumption, step on it and kill it. The faulty assumption in this case is the idea that logic (or reason) and faith are mutually exclusive. They are not. They are complementary.

There is a way, there is logic, there is reason that SEEMS right to a MAN, but the end of it is the ways of death. How can you tell the reason of God from the reason of men? What yardstick and what measure do you use that is true?

What is the objective standard against which a Christian measures anything?

You answer with a question because you want to play a game. The game you play is emotionally based. It is driven in flesh and lust. I am not here to divide with you or to be disunified IF you and I have the Spirit of God within us. I will not divide for my part. Neither will I take part in the feeding of your flesh or mine by continuing the debate. I have said what I have said, written what I have written. Understand it or not. There is enough in what I have written.

Nevertheless the question remains: What is the objective standard by which a Christian measures anything?

L-O-V-E. all else hangs on this. in your measurement, does it benefit you at someone else's expense? does it make you feel more important than someone else? must someone else feel worse so that you may feel better? these are the measurements we need and is mostly just a way of saying 'Do Unto Others as You Would Have them Do Unto You'.

God did give use the ability to reason for a reason . that said, we can't rely on it because perfect reason/logic must have all the facts pertaining to a given situation in order to come to a perfect conclusion. there's just no way we can have access to all the facts.

[Grungekid]

I found this interesting, for although the set-up of the article favors reason as the be-all and end-all (as it seems several people here favor), the explanations show that it really isn't.

(Not to deny its usefulness myself, but is it correct to make reason the final authority on an issue?)

To dig deeper into each point made, click here for the article. It provides links to other articles and videos presentations of these arguments.

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Seven reasons why people hate reason

From religious fundamentalism to pseudoscience, it seems that forces are attacking the Enlightenment world view