salvation is a process

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

That is true, but God is NOT glorified if your obedience plays a role in how you get saved. If it does, then it means that the blood of Jesus is not alone sufficient for salvation.

These are two very distinct different aspects of the whole plan of salvation.

LOL no, they are not. There is no such thing as two aspects of salvation in Biblical Christianity; maybe they exist in whatever religion you belong to, but not in Christianity.

the latter to which you refer is Christ's work on the Cross. Man has absolutely nothing to do with this aspect of his salvation. God actually imposed it upon His entire created order, not just mankind. Christ redeeemed the world from destruction, death and sin. Everything and everyone has already been saved, redeemed, reconciled to God by His death and resurrection.

No he has not. That smacks of universalism, a major heresy.

God has made salvation available to all men, but it still has to be appropriated. The Bible does not teach that all men are saved, only that it is available to them.

Thus, what is understood as the salvation of your personal soul depends SOLELY, and ONLY upon you.

What you are teaching ultimately is that salvation is works-based system which ultimately depends on your rightesouness.

The problem with your view is that it takes a very vain and arrogant view with respect to the value of your "faithfulness." You cannot be faithful enough or do enough good deeds long enough or good enough. The reason being is that you cannot fulfill the righteousness of God's law. Jesus, when living on earth not only lived a perfect life, but also fulfilled the rightesouness of the law, something no regular human being could do. We still can't.

Our salvation is dependent on the righteousness of the law being fulfilled, but we can't do it, so it is done for us, within us (Romans 8:4) That is the aspect of obedience that makes salvation possible but is out of the reach of any human being. It is not your works that ultimately save you.

You are not good enough to save yourself no matter how illustrious your works look in your eyes. I am sorry but you are out in left field.

QUOTE

Salvation is based on Jesus keeping me, not me keeping myself. Trying to make salvation a partnership between steals glory from God by means of a false assumption about the value of my works. In truth is just the arrogance of the vanity of man to assume that a person has anything of value to contribute to salvation.

Most of the Bible directly opposes such a view. The entire Book of James is categorically opposed to such a view. James is the closest we have of actually having a manual for Christian living. It is how we aught to live in order to be saved.

You could not be more wrong. James is written to believers about how to live out their faith. It has nothing to do with how to get saved.

The truth is that it only the stark arrogance of man that holds to the view that he somehow can perform well enough to deserve salvation.

Eternal life is a gift God gives individually, not corporately and it is through Jesus (Rom. 6:23) The key word in that verse is gift. It is a personal gift. It is a free gift. A gift is not earned, it is a reward for service or faithfulness. A gift is freely given without any preconditions or strings. It is free. The religious vanity of man cannot handle that. You cannot handle it, but that is what Biblical Christianity is predicated on.

[Guest]

A Parallel Look

OT

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel 2:32

NT

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:21

OT

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Joel 19:25-27

NT

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10

OT

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Habakkuk 2:4

NT

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

OT

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

NT

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

John 15:3

OT

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 3:5-6

NT

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:10

[Thaddaeus]

Erich,

No, James is a manual on how we are to live as a result of being saved (Eph. 2:8-10)

We possess salvation. No question about that. When we enter by repentance and baptism and receive the Holy Spirit, we have entered into union with Christ. This is salvation. But we do not have it finitely. It is a possession for which we need to be faithful. Adam was in possession of his salvation as well before he fell. But he sinned which resulted in losing his relationship with God. We, if we believe, are under the same commandment. It is all a matter of continual obedience and faithfulness. We can lose faith as there are at least a 100 verses in the NT alone that attest to believers losing faith. We are saved through that faith, thus if we do not have faith, we are no longer being saved. We have severed the relationship with God, same as Adam.

This is what the whole book of James is teachings. It is our works that is evidence of our faith. If we do not have the works, our faith is dead. One is not saved with a dead faith, or an unfaithful faith.

I Pet 1:3-5 clearly attest that it awaits us at the end. It is why we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Explanation: Paul sounds like he's really trying to get the point accross by stating "the Spirit expressly says." With this kind of language, we better pay attention. The word for giving heed also means to turn the mind to, give attention to, to apply one's self to, to devote thought and effort to. So don't give much attention to people who tell you that you can not lose your salvation. The word for depart also means to desert, to fall away, become faithless, to withdraw one's self from. Either way that you look at it they stop having faith. So be careful of deceiving spirits and keep the faith.

1 Timothy 5:15 - For some have already turned aside after Satan. Explanation: They no longer followed Christ. To come to Christ is not a one-time deal and it is all over with. You can turn aside after Satan just like these people did.

2 Timothy 1:12 - ... He is able to keep what I have committed To Him until that Day. Explanation: Paul wasn't talking just about his salvation; and a backsliden, apostate Christian cannot rightfully claim this. Paul was certain that God would keep his deposit, his life and the eternal rewards of his ministry. Paul was preparing for his imminent death, but in spite of this he was hopeful. He had spent his time, resources, and even his life on proclaiming the gospel, and this investment in Christ's kingdom will bring him an abundant reward in eternity.

The word able is NOT will. Able leaves the possibility that it could or could not happen. He is able to, but that doesn't mean He definitely will. God gave us a free will to serve Him or not. We are not robots after we get saved. Some Christians turn aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15).

2 Timothy 2:11-13 - This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He will also deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. Explanation: The word "if" is a primary particle of conditionality. Clearly, this makes our final salvation conditional. To endure means to suffer, to preserve under misfortunes and trials, to hold fast to one's faith in Christ, bear bravely and calmly ill treatments. We must endure through whatever comes our way all the way until we die with Him in our lives, then we will live and reign with Him. "he who endures to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13). If we wind up denying Him before the time of our death, you can't get around the word of God here, He will also deny us. At the end here in 2:13 where it says He remains faithful, that is not meaning He remains faithful to those who are faithless and denying Him. It means He remains faithful to His word, you can't get around it, because He cannot deny Himself. People should not water-down the word of God by saying that this means He remains faithful to the faithless or to someone who does not endure with Him till death. It does not say that. He cannot deny Himself, is what it says, not He won't deny you if you are faithless.

What text(s) could you possibly use to refute the endurance of our faith as a means to the salvation of our souls?

[Guest shiloh357]

It is a possession for which we need to be faithful.

NO, it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23). You are teaching a false gospel of a works-based system of salvation.

[Thaddaeus]

shiloh357,

NO, it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23). You are teaching a false gospel of a works-based system of salvation.

No, you don't understand which salvation it is referencing.

Rom 6:23 is speaking about Christ's Work on the Cross. Christ came to save mankind from the fall. Came to reverse what Adam did to the world. He brought death and sin. Christ redeemed us from death and sin. It is a free Gift to the the world. He defeated Satan who is the ruler of this world with power through death. By Adam we inherited death, mortality. By Christ we inherited life and immortality.

This does not reference the salvation of our souls. The salvation of our souls is the ultimate consequence of why we were created in the first place and why Christ redeemed the world, so that the the purpose of His creation could be accomplished. You are not being saved from union, bot to have union. It is the purpose of Christ's work on the Cross.

It is why you are so confused regarding works. It has nothing to do with what Christ did, but all to do with Why Christ saved the world from destruction, death and sin. It has always been about works, being transformed into the Likness of God, living in a relationship with God. This is what Adam was doing before the fall. It is the WHY we exist as human beings and why we were saved by Christ.

This has been the understanding of Christianity for 2000 years. If you don't understand it this way, it is you that is preaching a totally different Gospel.

[Thaddaeus]

ruck1b,

What salvation did Adam possess. What salvation was Adam in need of prior to the fall?

Let me ask you? Was Adam created perfect?

What was the purpose of Adam or human beings being created?

When you answer this, then you will see that is precisely what we are required to do now, what is known as the salvation of our individual souls. Christ did not save your individual soul on the Cross. It is the WHY He saved you, as He did every single human being, in fact, the universe. He reversed the effect of Adam. It is why He is called the Second Adam.

As in Adam all men die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. It is a perfect equation. From mortality to immortality. Christ lost none to death. All men shall be raised in the last day and the complete triumph of Christ will be revealed. Satan and death will have been totally vanquished.

All men will stand in judgement and answer to the offer of salvation of their soul, which was to be in union with God. If in your lifetime you accepted, believed in Christ, and remained faithful to His calling and union with HIM, you shall be in eternity WITH Him. However, if you rejected Him in this life, did not believe you shall live in eternity APART from Christ. Where you spend eternity is all in your hands. It is your choice.

[Matthitjah]

I agree what is being preached is a works based Salvation and I stated earlier on in this thread that we do not want to Yoke the believer with a unnecessary burden.

The OP herself stated that was not her intention either.

http://www.worthychristianforums.com/salva...86#entry1236086

Peace,

Dave

[EricH]

Erich,

No, James is a manual on how we are to live as a result of being saved (Eph. 2:8-10)

We possess salvation. No question about that. When we enter by repentance and baptism and receive the Holy Spirit, we have entered into union with Christ. This is salvation. But we do not have it finitely. It is a possession for which we need to be faithful. Adam was in possession of his salvation as well before he fell. But he sinned which resulted in losing his relationship with God. We, if we believe, are under the same commandment. It is all a matter of continual obedience and faithfulness. We can lose faith as there are at least a 100 verses in the NT alone that attest to believers losing faith. We are saved through that faith, thus if we do not have faith, we are no longer being saved. We have severed the relationship with God, same as Adam.

This is what the whole book of James is teachings. It is our works that is evidence of our faith. If we do not have the works, our faith is dead. One is not saved with a dead faith, or an unfaithful faith.

I Pet 1:3-5 clearly attest that it awaits us at the end. It is why we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Explanation: Paul sounds like he's really trying to get the point accross by stating "the Spirit expressly says." With this kind of language, we better pay attention. The word for giving heed also means to turn the mind to, give attention to, to apply one's self to, to devote thought and effort to. So don't give much attention to people who tell you that you can not lose your salvation. The word for depart also means to desert, to fall away, become faithless, to withdraw one's self from. Either way that you look at it they stop having faith. So be careful of deceiving spirits and keep the faith.

1 Timothy 5:15 - For some have already turned aside after Satan. Explanation: They no longer followed Christ. To come to Christ is not a one-time deal and it is all over with. You can turn aside after Satan just like these people did.

2 Timothy 1:12 - ... He is able to keep what I have committed To Him until that Day. Explanation: Paul wasn't talking just about his salvation; and a backsliden, apostate Christian cannot rightfully claim this. Paul was certain that God would keep his deposit, his life and the eternal rewards of his ministry. Paul was preparing for his imminent death, but in spite of this he was hopeful. He had spent his time, resources, and even his life on proclaiming the gospel, and this investment in Christ's kingdom will bring him an abundant reward in eternity.

The word able is NOT will. Able leaves the possibility that it could or could not happen. He is able to, but that doesn't mean He definitely will. God gave us a free will to serve Him or not. We are not robots after we get saved. Some Christians turn aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15).

2 Timothy 2:11-13 - This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He will also deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. Explanation: The word "if" is a primary particle of conditionality. Clearly, this makes our final salvation conditional. To endure means to suffer, to preserve under misfortunes and trials, to hold fast to one's faith in Christ, bear bravely and calmly ill treatments. We must endure through whatever comes our way all the way until we die with Him in our lives, then we will live and reign with Him. "he who endures to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13). If we wind up denying Him before the time of our death, you can't get around the word of God here, He will also deny us. At the end here in 2:13 where it says He remains faithful, that is not meaning He remains faithful to those who are faithless and denying Him. It means He remains faithful to His word, you can't get around it, because He cannot deny Himself. People should not water-down the word of God by saying that this means He remains faithful to the faithless or to someone who does not endure with Him till death. It does not say that. He cannot deny Himself, is what it says, not He won't deny you if you are faithless.

What text(s) could you possibly use to refute the endurance of our faith as a means to the salvation of our souls?

Endurance is not a means, it is an evidence. Ephesians 2:8-10 is not ambiguos regarding the relationship between salvation and works.

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are His creation-- created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Epheisians 2:8-10 HCSB

There is no debating the logial relationship between works and faith in this passage. Salvation comes through faith alone. Works play no part in our receiving salvation. The use of the word "for" (that we were created in Christ (saved) for good works, demands that we see words as a result of salvation. They do not play a part in it, they are a fruit of it.

None of the passages you have shared above demand that works be seen as a "means of maintenance". Especially since that would place those passages in oppostion to the unambiguous logic and grammer in the Epehesians passage. None of the passages you provided explicitly state the person is losing a salvation they possess as a result of not doing certain works.

What you are teaching is called "covenental nomism". It basically holds that we are saved by faith but maintained by works. It is a teaching that has risen up time after time in the history of the church and has needed to be addressed repeatedly.

Christs blood was sufficient not only to initiate our salvation, but to maintain it. Peter seems to agree with this:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who are being protected by God's power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. You rejoice in this, though now for a short time you have had to be distressed by various trials so that the genuineness of your faith-- more valuable than gold, which perishes though refined by fire-- may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3-7 HCSB

Peter sees our new birth as being

1. Given to us by God

2. Kept by God (through our act of faith, not works)

Trials are not what keep us in salvation. According to Peter they prove or demonstrate the "genuineness" of our salvation. The scriptures just do not lead me to the same place as you

[EricH]

Saints,

As a mod-team we have decided to close this thread. The concept of the gospel being earned or maintained by works we believe to be unbiblical. As shepherds of the boards we think the discussion has run its course