Sinlessness

[Guest Called]

I agree with you dimeministries.

Bob and I got into this debate on the other thread, so I won't say much, cause this is definitely a "can of worms", but I do want to say one thing.

The Bible says in Romans 3:23, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I think we will have no disagreements there. I have sinned, you have sinned, we all have sinned! That is why Jesus died for us. What my question is, is where does it say we have to keep on sinning once we receive Jesus? Romans 3:23 says all HAVE SINNED, not DO sin. It is in the past tense. Even if we had just committed one sin, we would have been in need of a Savior.

I will repeat what I said in the other thread. It is in Hebrews 10:14, "For by that one offering he perfected forever all those whom he is making holy."

We have been made perfect, yet we are being made holy. Through His death and resurrection. Christ, once for all, made his believers perfect in God's sight. At the same time He is making them holy (progressively cleansed, set apart for his special use) in their daily pilgrimage here.

Respectfully, if you say you can live above sin, then you are saying you are like God

Because someone says they believe they can live a holy life, doesn't mean they are saying they are like God. God NEVER sinned, we all have, but it doesn't mean we have to keep sinning. God wants us to strive to be holy and perfect, why else would he have told us to? I really don't think God wants us to sin, it has been made perfectly clear throughout the whole Bible.

Edited May 24, 2004 by Called

[cymba22]

catsmeow...i understand what you are saying...my 2 youngest are special needs...one is autistic.....but the point is...we ALL are born with inhearent sin...which means that as babies ...special needs or otherwise they have inherent sin...however in matt ...he talks about the age of accountability and so makes a exception to those 2 groups when he talks about recieving graceIMHO

[Khristeeanos]

For those who accept a teaching that we are inherently sinful and unable to live a holy life, please explain to me why we are commanded by Jesus to be perfect?

Matthew 5:48

Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NIV)

And explain to me the following two passages of Scripture that were in my original post to open this thread:

Titus 2:11-14

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works.

The Apostle Paul said that the TRUE grace teaches us to deny sin and to live a holy and pleasing life TODAY!

1 John 2:1

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin...

1 John 1 needs to add the above verse as well. The Apostle John is saying that yes we can mess up, but that by no means allows us to sin wilfully ever for any reason.

Let us deal with the Bible alone as our supreme authority and get away from our understanding.

[BobTriez]

Everytime somone brings this topic up, I ask the same question and I never get an answer.....so, I'm going to ask this question again -

Do you firmly believe and hold to the fact that you are without sin ?

You know, Jesus asked this very same question - and no one ever answered him.....do you know why ? Read from the word & see if you can figure out why -

John 8:1-11

1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group

4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.

5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"

6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

7 But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.

10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11 "No one, sir," she said.

"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

So I ask you - Do you firmly believe and hold to the fact that you are without sin ?

In His service

Bob

[barracuda]

Everytime somone brings this topic up, I ask the same question and I never get an answer.....so, I'm going to ask this question again -

Do you firmly believe and hold to the fact that you are without sin ?

So I ask you - Do you firmly believe and hold to the fact that you are without sin ?

In His service

Bob

No.

[Khristeeanos]

Everytime somone brings this topic up, I ask the same question and I never get an answer.....so, I'm going to ask this question again -

Do you firmly believe and hold to the fact that you are without sin ?

You know, Jesus asked this very same question - and no one ever answered him.....do you know why ? Read from the word & see if you can figure out why -

John 8:1-11

1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group

4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.

5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"

6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

7 But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.

10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11 "No one, sir," she said.

"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

So I ask you - Do you firmly believe and hold to the fact that you are without sin ?

Who was Jesus talking to when He said this?

It was self-righteous religious people who were full of pride and arrogance and hate.

Christians are not to be controlled by their sinful nature.

To quote verses like that and ask that question is a bit misleading.

Have I ever sinned?

YES!

I am a sinner.

I am a sinner saved by grace.

I am a sinner saved by grace through faith.

But does that mean that we should continue to live in sin?

Does that mean that God's grace is His ignorant tolerance of our blantant disregard for His inspired Word where He had The Apostle Paul pen these words:

1 Corinthians 15:34

Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."  Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame.

Or how about these words:

John 5:14

See, you are well again.  Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.

[Catsmeow]

For those who accept a teaching that we are inherently sinful and unable to live a holy life, please explain to me why we are commanded by Jesus to be perfect?

That's an easy one. We are to yield ourselves unto the molding of the Holy Spirit. It's called, "santification".

Children are never perfect but they are learning and growing to become mature. We are all at different places in our walk.

Could I say I never sin? Truth be told, we probably all sin many times without realizing the gravity of our thoughts and actions.

Commentary in several bible versions I've read refers to the "practicing of sin"...or willfully living in rebellion.

For instance, a dear Christian friend of mine is going through a divorce. She made the dreadful error of marrying a man who ended up being an abusive monster, screaming the "F" word at her and her children and doing great harm to these precious ones.

It was inevitable that she'd get a divorce. She went against God's will marrying him in the first place. This was tantamount to legalized fornication...not marriage.

During her visit she said she wouldn't get married again...I suggested she find a nice roommate; maybe an elderly lady.

She looked SHOCKED at me and said, "I need a man!" *(You are getting what I'm saying here, I'm sure).

I was then shocked since she was implying having a man outside of wedlock.

How can this be? Why would a Christian go against everything they know is wrong and deliberately practice sin?

I dunno. They just do. This is the big problem we run into; when people begin to abandon God and do their own thing, that's a problem.

[Catsmeow]

BTW, an infant has a sin nature and when grown to fullness will sin. However, they are considered to be without GUILT because they have no faculty to comprehend right and wrong.

Even the laws of man explicitly state that there must be intent. If a misdeed occurs according to Tort Law by an accident, not by knowingly or willful misconduct, it is not regarded a crime.

How much more so does God, in His perfection, consider the innocence of those who are incapable of comprehending right or wrong.

As far as able-minded adults: It you think you've "arrived"...man, I need to kiss your hand because I know for a fact I sure haven't.

In fact, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't find something in me that falls short of the glory of God.

My righteousness is soley from Christ. That's it!

[cymba22]

Yes it tells you to stop sinning...but can you??????everyone who says on this thread you can live a sinless life...then why arn't you then?????a sinless life isn't just 1 day or 1 week...its a minimum of 3 score and ten......so the question that should be asked....can you go for at least 3 scroe and ten years without sinning once...i dare you....its impossable...that why we have the verse(i forget where it is for now)he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrightiousness...because he knows we will sin again...

inherent sin...you can be morally just and not be saved....that wont get you to heaven..why not...if you've been good all your life.....theres only one answer...inherent sin.

For those who accept a teaching that we are inherently sinful and unable to live a holy life, please explain to me why we are commanded by Jesus to be perfect?

we are commanded to...it doesn't mean it can be obtained in this life time...thats on the physical side of the question...Jesus however was not talking about the physical side of the question...he was talking spiritually...when we are saved we are justified in the sight of God...we are perfect in his sight...that is the perfection he was talking about....go and be saved...justified....perfect

[Catsmeow]

Yes it tells you to stop sinning...but can you??????everyone who says on this thread you can live a sinless life...then why arn't you then?????

Man, I'm with you. I find myself examining my heart daily before the Lord, just as King David spoke of in the Psalms when he said, "Examine my heart, Oh God!"

He was constantly evaluating his heart's motives and intents and looking deep within himself.

Perfection is never found in man but in Christ and we are HIDDEN within him. Our righteousness is in Him.

While we love Him and cherish Him, it's our motivation to yield to Him and be conformed to His likeness.

For anyone to be so brash as to say they've "arrived"...well, God luv ya! You've made it a lot farther than I have.

I have to be on MY knees daily. My prayer is, "But for the GRACE of God, there go I".

I am utterly dependent upon Him daily to keep me on the right path.