3 Plain Statements About The Rapture

[Rick-Parker]

It is not a "secret rapture." That is what the nay-sayers who do not believe in the rapture say to try and make it look bad. You really need to nail down exactly who Jesus is addressing in the Olivet discourse. It isn't the church.

This isn't a salvation issue and no one has it figured out with 100% certainty.

I posted a good read on the Olivet discourse. http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Olive...rse-t89616.html

[Guest man]

This isn't a salvation issue and no one has it figured out with 100% certainty.

It is a salvation issue if one isn't ready.

Who do you think Paul is talking about here?

2 Thess. 2

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[sistercindy]

AMEN OneLight.... well said

May we all concern ourselves with being about the Father's business...being ready for our coming King...having focused ourselves towards using the gifts given us for His Glory and Honor..... and i think if we all do that, more and more will see Christ in us.....and be saved.

[Rick-Parker]

Believing or not believing in the rapture will not save you. There is only one way to be saved, through faith in Jesus Christ. That is the only salvation issue. The rest is doctrine and up for debate.

[AnotherTraveler]

The parable of the wheat and tares show clearly that it is the wicked who will be removed from the earth first. This totally proves their is no pretrib, secret rapture.

Matthew 13

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Then what do you do with this scripture?

1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Oops. It helps to know who Jesus is talking to, or about, the Church or Israel.

There is no "the church or Israel", we are grafted into the root.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 11:17-32 (KJV)

[Guest man]

Oops. It helps to know who Jesus is talking to, or about, the Church or Israel.

Instead of poking fun at our supposed ignorance, why don't you tell us who Christ was talking to?

[truthbringer]

truthbringer,

Are you ever going to post those verses?

Just wondering.

Can you give me scripture that says the Church will go through the tribulation, I mean what the Bible actualy says, Not your own speculation on it.

When I say the Church I mean the ones who are ready & watching,

Not [A] the backsliders, The Jews [The Elect] [C] The Gentiles. These all will go through the tribulation.

But can you give me scripture that mentions the Church going through the tribulation.

[Larry 2]

Quoting antiaging: A plain statement showing that the rapture happens at the resurection of the righteous dead;

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the

archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the

clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Question by larry2: Dear antiaging, I fail to see in these verses where there is a clear indication that there is only one resurrection of the righteous. Would you please elaborate on that?

Question by larry2: Before delving into this as to better understand your opinion, when in the book of Revelation does the tribulation begin?

Thank you in Jesus' name - larry2

Edited August 24, 2008 by Larry 2

[Massorite]

The bible contains plain statements that plainly mean what they say, and no interpretation is necessary. The bible also contains some statements that are not plain, and you need to interpret the meaning to understand what is said.

The bible does not contradict itself, when properly understood.

Whenever an interpretation contradicts a plain statement, then that interpretation is false, and another interpretation must be found.

There are 3 plain statements that say plainly that the rapture is after the tribulation period and at the end of the age.

There are no plain statements that say that the rapture is before the tribulation period.

A plain statement showing that the rapture happens at the resurection of the righteous dead;

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

A plain statement that the resurection is at the last day, so the rapture must be at the last day of the age: (The person saying that didn't know anything about the 1000 year reign and meant the end of the present age.)

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Plain statement showing the resurection at the last trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There is no last trumpet before the tribulation period. The last trumpet is the 7th trumpet in revelation which happens after the 6th at the end of the tribulation period. (seals, vials, and trumpets go all the way to the end of the tribulation period from the context of what is said.)

Plain statement showing the rapture is after the tribulation period:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There are NO plain statements saying that the rapture is before the tribulation period. There are only misinterpretations of some scriptures used to support that view.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The one in 2 Thessalonians is not referring to the rapture at all. It is referring to the falling away from the faith (apostacy) that is supposed to happen before antichrist is revealed.--Taken out of the way, in the apostacy. [That apostacy has already happened with the ecumenical movement pulling church leaderships under the control of the vatican, and the true gospel not being preached and fake bibles that have the words changed being widely accepted.]

They try to force an interpretation saying it refers to the rapture based on some vague idea that the church is a restraining force and must be raptured out; but it is not a plain statement. It must be a false interpretation because it contradicts the 3 plain statements that the rapture is post tribulation and at the resurection which is also post tribulation.

Show me a plain statement saying the rapture is pre tribulation. You cannot because there isn't any. The pre trib rapture is based only on bad interpretations of harder to understand scriptures and someone's ideas about this or that. There are no plain statements saying it.

The idea that the church is a restraining force against the antichrist also contradicts a plain statement that the antichrist will scatter the power of the church before Jesus comes back. So, that is a false idea.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The only people that will be holy at the time of the end are the real Christians.

You have made some very good points antiaging. I like to add that there is no scriptural proof that the "he/restrainer" in 2 Thess 3 is the church or the antichrist or the Holy Spirit or anything else. The bible simply doesn't tell us who the "restrainer"is.

[Guest man]

truthbringer,

Are you ever going to post those verses?

Just wondering.

Can you give me scripture that says the Church will go through the tribulation, I mean what the Bible actualy says, Not your own speculation on it.

Do you not remember saying this?

There are too many scripture that prove the Pre-trib Rapture for it not to be true.

And then saying this when I asked you to post them?

I will if I get the time

If you are unable to provide the scripture you claim exists, then you should not make such claims.

If you need post tribulation scripture, read the opening post. All I would be doing is repeating what he said.

If one cannot honor their word, then they should not put it out there.

If there is so much pre-trib rapture proof, as you claim, then you should put it out there for everyone to see. And as you say, "Not your own speculation on it", but actual scripture to back up your claims.

You are the truthbringer, bring us the truth.