What the Bible says about the second coming of Jesus

[truthbringer]

OK. You are wrong but OK

He is more than just wrong he has scripture so twisted it would take for ever to get the knot out. WOW!!!, First of the Bible does not teach there will be two 2nd coming moreover Jesus does not say He is taken anyone back to heaven in John 14:1-3 He says that He is going to heaven to make a place for us (that place is New Jerusalem) and it will not come down from earth until after the Millennium, Jesus also says when He returns He will recieve us into Himself that were He is we will be also (Not were He was going to or where He was, but where He is) and where is Jesus going to be when He returns? The earth for the Millennium and that is where we will be as well where Jesus is not where He was going or where He was b4 His return. Finally and I could go on but finally 1st John 3:2 says when Jesus appears we will be like Him. When is His ''glorious appearing''? which is a phrase pretribbers use to separate the supposed ''coming in the clouds'' His actual coming they call the 2nd coming His glorious appearing. So when is His glorious appearing? after the tribulation at His posttrib 2nd coming. When will we be like Christ (or receive our heavenly bodies)? at the rapture. So if we will be like Him when He appears as the scripture says, then we will be raptured at the posttrib 2nd coming.

When a man comes along 2,000 years later and starts saying that Paul got it wrong and that the Bible is mistaken, and also twists scripture so out of whack that it is no longer scripture, it is easier to just let people know that he is wrong.

The real WOW is that there are people who AMEN someone who says Paul got it wrong.

Just to clarify something. I did not Amen on so called mistakes that Paul made. If you read the whole post of Truthbringer, you would've noticed he/she didn't say Paul made a mistake, he/she clearly stated the following: and I quote him

"NOTE, The Bible teaches us that the second coming is in two parts. [A] The coming for the saints The physical coming.

If the rapture is at the Physical coming of Jesus the saints will have to do a U-turn in mid-air to come back with Him.

And Paul made a mistake when he said, "We that are alive shall be caught up in the air" 1 Thessalonions 4: 17.

at the Physical coming of Jesus there is no record of the ressurected saints, so Paul also made a mistake 1 Thess 4: 13--16.

Remember, The Bible writters were inspiered by God. So if they made a mistake, it means that God made the mistake."

So, again I clarify this, Truthbringer DIDN'T say Paul made a mistake, he/she said if it was that the rapture is the second coming then there would've been a mistake, which there isn't.

And you know what, I belive in the pre-trib rapture, but even if it's not like that, I'm still a Blood washed child of the Living God, and whenever He wants to take us away, is up to Him, not up to us to quarrel about, and not respecting other believers views.

There is not mistake in 1st Thess 4:15-17 we do meet the Lord in the air as He is descending to earth and return with Him to the earth. This does not contradict what Paul has written, and it does talk about the dead being raise at the 2nd coming it says in 1st Thess 4 that the dead rise first and in 1st Cor 15:20-23 it says that the dead in Christ are resurrected at His coming. and in Mark 13:24-27 it say that the angels gother all the elect from heaven and earth,. The dead in Christ from heaven and those that are alive and remain from earth.

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.

Mark 13:24-27

24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

And just to support what Mark says about gather the dead in Christ from heaven 1st Thess 4:13-14 says that God will bring those that are dead in Christ with Jesus when He returns.so you can read it in context I will quore verse 13-17

1st Thess 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you be ignorant brethren, concerning them that are asleep, that you sorrow not as others who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep is Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

The trouble with your theoligy is when Jesus comes again, His Saints will be coming with him, Not cought up to meet Him.

You need to read the whole of the subject, Not take out scripture to make a wrong doctrine.

The rapture The physical coming

Jesus. Jesus

Not on Earth. Comes to Earth

Comes for His own comes with His own

Gets his bride. Comes with His bride.

The Saints. The Saints

A Marriage feast. No Marriage feast.

Ressurected Saints No Ressurected Saints.

Before the anti- Christ. Ater the anti- Christ.

You will find all these truths in the Bible. So there has to be a pre-trib rapture.

[Larry 2]

When a man comes along 2,000 years later and starts saying that Paul got it wrong and that the Bible is mistaken, and also twists scripture so out of whack that it is no longer scripture, it is easier to just let people know that he is wrong.

The real WOW is that there are people who AMEN someone who says Paul got it wrong.

If you will reread this portion of Truthbringer's argument concerning Paul being wrong you will find that he didn't say Paul was wrong, he said IF. He is using a negative argument to prove Paul was not wrong when he said ""We that are alive shall be caught up in the air." Anyhow think what you will but it may help to reread this following statement he made.

If the rapture is at the Physical coming of Jesus the saints will have to do a U-turn in mid-air to come back with Him. And Paul made a mistake when he said, "We that are alive shall be caught up in the air" 1 Thessalonions 4: 17.

at the Physical coming of Jesus there is no record of the ressurected saints, so Paul also made a mistake 1 Thess 4: 13--16.

Remember, The Bible writters were inspiered by God. So if they made a mistake, it means that God made the mistake.

Also Jesus made a mistake when He said, "I will come again and take you to heaven with Me".

I just noticed this addressed in a previous reply - sorry

[Larry 2]

Quoting Rufus - ...and the trouble with most pre-tribbers that I encounter here and elsewhere is that they can't articulate their thought without resorting to charismatic jargon. The above is probably the clearest statement of the pre-trib/rapture scenario I've seen in a while. Now all you have to do is support it from scripture. The problem is, no one can. Pre-trib/rapture is a false construct based on out of context proof-texting.

By the way, I've been reading and studying the Bible for thirty-five years and if nothing else, I've learned never to take anything anyone claims in God's name at face value until I check it out for myself, especially when it comes to eschatology. Too much of what passes for scholarship in this area is nothing more than wishful thinking based on wild theories, speculation and nonsense founded on a misreading of Revelation. Most of the people that buy into the "Left Behind" scenario never stop to ask what John's original audience would have understood him to say and why he was saying it. That opens the door for all kinds of speculation, none of which is based on anything solid other than a declaration that "the Holy Spirit told me so." When I hear that, I know the difference between being an illumined reader and an inspired writer is lost on the speaker. Inevitably, when challenged, the questioner is subjected to scorn and abuse, however benign. The burden of proof is on he who asserts, not he who defends.

Response -Somehow the words "Hath God said" comes to mind when I read your reply concerning Truthbringer's thread Rufus.

Quoting Rufus - The burden of proof is on he who asserts, not he who defends.

Asserted by Rufus - Pre-trib/rapture is a false construct based on out of context proof-texting.

Can you do what you claim Rufus? - Now all you have to do is support it from scripture.

Response - Since you made the statement I would appreciate no assumptions, but scripture in context to the subject.

[Larry 2]

When will the rapture take place? Some believe the pre-tribulation rapture and some believe the mid-trib-or post trib rapture. Who's right

Just a thought on this.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Acts 1:11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

In other words as you see me go away in the air, I will return in the air. I do not see where it says He is limited to one returning in the air for His saints; is there a verse saying Jesus will only return in the air once? I also do not see Jesus' appearing to the Church as limited to one event.

[BlindSeeker]

Response -Somehow the words "Hath God said" comes to mind when I read your reply concerning Truthbringer's thread Rufus.

Nice slam Larry.

You and I know there is only one place in scripture where that phrase is stated. You may as well just go ahead and call Rufus "Lucifer"

Ge 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

[Larry 2]

I will ask this again:

Can someone tell me why this is important?

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Isa]

Re: OP title: The Rapture is not the Second Coming. The Church is raptured away, and the Church actually comes back with Jesus for His glorious, conquering return to set up His Millennial Kingdom and reign with Him for 1000 years here on Earth.

Amen to that Floatingaxe. The church is raptured well before the Lord returns the second time. I will be pleased to reign side by side with my Lord during the Millennial Kingdom. We will return with Him when He destroys the enemy.

Revelation 19:11-16

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 20:1-6

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

[AnotherTraveler]

Jesus is coming again.

[mary ann]

Jesus is coming again.

Amen t that Another Traveller! something I strive and look forward too each and everyday! mary ann "Kep your eyes on the Heavens~!"

[Larry 2]

name='truthbringer' date='Aug 26 2008, 11:37 PM' post='1244788']

name='kross' post='1244689' date='Aug 26 2008, 10:20 PM']OK. You are wrong but OK

Quoting Truthbringer - I have put what the Bible says, If I'm wrong then God is wrong.

Response - I know you from other replies that you insist on truth using scripture, at least against me.

Quoting Truthbringer - Matthew 25: 1--13. These were all Christians, Five were ready and five were backslid.

Response - Where do you read that five were backslid using scripture; it says our lamps are gone out in Verse 8.

Quoting Truthbringer - We know they were all Christians because V8 says, The oil in our lamps are gone out. The oil is the Holy Spirit, So they were all Christians once.

Response - So you relate lamps going out with loss of salvation? Have you any scripture on that? I sure don't want God to be wrong since you said it. Since you say they were once Christians, and in Verses 10 & 11 they went to purchase oil, they must have gotten it because they return later to the marriage and are denied. Did they get saved a second time?