Just a theory, but worth a second look

[RGR]

We consistently see arguments, which may or may not be true, that the Earth is only somewhere around 6,000 years old. If the dating methods can be trusted, and I've seen convincing evidence in both directions, we are not to assume that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. I have heard the theory promoted that there was a pre-Adamic society. Let's look at this starting with Genesis.

1 First this: God created the Heavens and Earth - all you see, all you don't see. 2 Earth was a soup of nothingness, a bottomless emptiness, an inky blackness. God's Spirit brooded like a bird above the watery abyss. The Message

For many, the skip on to verse 2 without ever thinking about it. However, notice this: in verse 1, everything is created, but in verse 2, it's a wasteland. For those of us who believe in God, we know that everything He creates is perfect, and even our atheistic friends Scientific Atheist and Vanilla Gorilla would admit, I think, that if God were to create something, it would be perfect. So what happened?

Obviously, something occured during that time span. The most obvious answer would be the war in Heaven when Satan uprose against God in rebellion, but is there more that we don't see? What if there were a society here BEFORE Adam and God destroyed that society with a flood (even thereby giving credence to the destruction of Atlantis possibly)? God didn't spare the world that was around when Noah walked the Earth, so I think it possible that this sort of scenario happened. Let's look at another part of Genesis:

I'm setting up my covenant with you that never again will everything living be destroyed by floodwaters; no, never again will a flood destroy the Earth. Genesis 9:11 The Message

Never again? Sounds like it might have happened before. So, is it possible? What are the thoughts of others on this?

[BobTriez]

Well, first off at the end of creation ( Gen 1:31 - And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. God said everything was very good. I can't see God saying everything was good if there had been a rebellion.

Secondly, in Ezekiel 28 we read that Lucifer was in the garden until "iniquity was found" in him. That would mean there was no angelic fall prior to the creation and completion of the garden.

Thirdly, God created good and I don't believe He used death as a means to bring life. Death was never the means to bring life, rather man brought death into life and subsequently caused death ( Rom 5:12 ).

I'm setting up my covenant with you that never again will everything living be destroyed by floodwaters; no, never again will a flood destroy the Earth. Genesis 9:11 The Message

Never again? Sounds like it might have happened before. So, is it possible? What are the thoughts of others on this?

Yes it happened...it just happened...this was spoken by God after the flood...and God promised He would never again destroy the Earth with a flood.

I looked at this "gap theory" for about 5 minutes before a bunch of red flags went up....simply isn't in line with scripture.

That's my take....don't know what's so difficult about believing what the Bible says -

Exodus 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Seems clear to me

In His service,

Bob

Edited May 31, 2004 by BobTriez

[Guest arkon]

Ive come accross web pages that support that story.

Some of them are really good,.......you get sucked in before you realize what they are talking about.

They also like to use Peter 'The world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished...'

but again...this is Noahs flood.

Then there is the overlooked

Death entered the world through sin, and sin through adam.

That means that nothing died before sin.

One final word.

For many, the skip on to verse 2 without ever thinking about it. However, notice this: in verse 1, everything is created, but in verse 2, it's a wasteland. For those of us who believe in God, we know that everything He creates is perfect, and even our atheistic friends Scientific Atheist and Vanilla Gorilla would admit, I think, that if God were to create something, it would be perfect. So what happened?

I bet I can do this with many many parts of the bible.

Heres one

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,

now that isnt much to look at is it. Just a human shaped thing made of dust...

Or is it a walking grunting human....with body and soul , just not spirit... until God..

breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here is another, much like yours

Gen 1:11  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

So what happened between 11 and 12.

God created it...but it was barren....he didnt create it with grass there...it was wasteland

But something happened between the time he created grass in 11, and the time it started growing again in 12. A who race of goats came and ate all the grass...or something....

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

See what I mean?

If you try to 'write' between the lines...then anything is possible.

You have to take Gods word for what it is. Its simple, literal, stright forward.

[other one]

Secondly, in Ezekiel 28 we read that Lucifer was in the garden until "iniquity was found" in him. That would mean there was no angelic fall prior to the creation and completion of the garden.

I don't follow this line of thinking. Lucifer/Satan was still in heaven when Jobe was alive here on earth and that was after his fall. Lucifer had fallen when he enticed Eve to eat of the forbiden fruit. I don't see where you can take that line of thought to say that Lucifer fell after the story of the Garden.

I am not sure when/if Lucifer has been kicked out of heaven and thrown down to earth, but it seems to me from all that I have read that has not happened as of yet and comes toward the end.

Sam

[BobTriez]

Secondly, in Ezekiel 28 we read that Lucifer was in the garden until "iniquity was found" in him.

Edited May 31, 2004 by BobTriez

[other one]

When I read revelation chapter 12 it leads me to believe that he has not been cast out of heaven yet.

Sam

[Guest arkon]

right Bob..

and to expand on that

How did satan accuse us? We saw how he tried to accuse Job...but Job held stedfast in the Lord..

He tries to tempt us into sin...

He tried to tempt our Lord Jesus Christ in the wilderness.

When Jesus came back from fasting, and being tempted...he proclaimed the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Mar 1:13  And he was in the wilderness forty days tempted of Satan; And he was with the wild beasts; And the angels ministered unto him.

Mar 1:14  Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Mar 1:15  and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel.

The sacrafice of Christ meant the end of the old covenant. The law convicts you of sin, Christ takes away the sin.

There is no more , a place for the accuser. It is after the resurection of Christ that I believe satan no longer has access to God

Rev 12:1  And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;

(I believe this woman is Israel)

Rev 12:2  and she was the child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.

Rev 12:3  And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.

Rev 12:4  And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.

(this speaks of the devil, and his earthly kingdom/beast that we were introduced to in Daniel. The Roman empire owned Israel at this point.)

Rev 12:5  And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

(Jesus ministered on earth, and then accended into heaven)

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

Rev 12:8  And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

(Satan no longer has access to God)

Rev 12:10  And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman that brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:14  And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Rev 12:15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman water as a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.

Rev 12:16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:

[BobTriez]

When I read revelation chapter 12 it leads me to believe that he has not been cast out of heaven yet. 

Sam

So you think that Satan is in Heaven ? How could something so vile be allowed to take residence in Heaven ? Man can't even come to God by his own ( works ) due to his sin, thus the need for Jesus to cleanse us ( salvation by grace ) so we can come into His presence.

The book of Job clearly shows a dialog between God and Satan.

Satan - ( unspoken )

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan also came with them.

God -

7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan -

Satan answered the LORD , "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

God -

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

Satan -

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

God -

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

Unspoken

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD .

===================================================

Satan could not remain in the presence of God. He was cast out as seen in Isaiah 14 ( see above post ).

I think Arkon has it right...But, I checked a few commentaries and if I may take the liberty to copy/paste a few -

From Matthew Henry -

Revelation 12 -

It is generally agreed by the most learned expositors that the narrative we have in this and the two following chapters, from the sounding of the seventh trumpet to the opening of the vials, is not a prediction of things to come, but rather a recapitulation and representation of things past, which, as God would have the apostle to foresee while future, he would have him to review now that they were past, that he might have a more perfect idea of them in his mind, and might observe the agreement between the prophecy and that Providence that is always fulfilling the scriptures. In this chapter we have an account of the contest between the church and antichrist, the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent.  I. As it was begun in heaven (Rev_12:1-11).  II. As it was carried on in the wilderness (Rev_12:12, etc.).

And John Gill's Exposition of the Bible -

Revelation 12 - INTRODUCTION TO REVELATION 12

This chapter contains a vision of two wonders or signs seen in heaven, a woman and a dragon, and an account of what followed thereon, war both in heaven and earth. The vision of the woman is in  Rev_12:1, who is described by her being clothed with the sun; by her having the moon under her feet; by a crown of twelve stars on her head; and by her pregnancy, travail, pains, and cry. The vision of the dragon is in Rev_12:3, who is described by his size, a great one; by his colour, red; by the number of his heads and horns, and the crowns on the former; by the force and strength of his tail, drawing and casting: down to the earth the third part of the stars of heaven; and by his position, standing before the woman, in order to devour her child when born. Next follows an account of the birth of her child, and what became of that and her: the child is said to be a man child, is described as a monarch, and as advanced to great honour and dignity; but she flies into the wilderness, where a place is prepared for her of God, and where she is hid for the space of 1260 days, Rev_12:5; upon this ensues a war in heaven; the combatants on one side were Michael and his angels, and on the other the dragon and his; the issue of which was, that the latter were conquered, and cast out into the earth, Rev_12:7, on account of which victory a triumphant song is sung by the inhabitants of heaven, because of salvation and strength that were come to them; and because of the kingdom and power of Christ, which now took place; and because of the ejection of Satan, the accuser of their brethren; in which song also notice is taken of the manner in which Satan was overcome by those he accused, by the blood of the Lamb, by the word of their testimony, and by their death; and it is concluded with an apostrophe to those that dwell in heaven, calling on them to rejoice, and to the inhabitants of the earth denouncing woe to them, because the devil was among them, whose wrath was great, his time being short, Rev_12:10. Next follow the dragon's persecution of the woman, and her flight into the wilderness, and the care took of her there, as before described, Rev_12:13; then the method the serpent took to annoy her, the help she received from the earth, and the wrath of the dragon upon that; which put him upon making war with the remnant of her seed, who kept the commandments of God, and had the testimony of Jesus, Rev_12:15.

I think it's clear that Satan no longer is our accuser, nor does he have access to God since Christ defeated him on the cross.

Any thoughts ? ( Sam or anyone ) I never claimed to know everything - I'm here to learn as much ( or more actually ) as I am to teach ( or attempt to ).

In His service,

Bob

[other one]

Bob, I stopped looking into others commentairies many years ago when I decided I could no longer believe some of the things I had been taught from birth in my church.

I will give some serious thought on the subject and get into the hebrew and greek and rethink things. I had not considered that those chapters might be in the past. If so then I may have to rethink some end time prophesy to go along with it.

It may take a while, but I've got a two week fishing trip coming up after this week and it will give me some good evening reading to keep me away from King and Koontz

[Bread_of_Life]

Actually, I have always wondered within the biblical account when Satan turned nasty. He's already nasty by Genesis 3 when we first meet him in the form of a serpant - when did he become so is the question?

As for sin entering the world with Adam, it could be that sin was entering the world again, after the re-creation event, the bible never says how many times sin has entered the world before that time, only to be suspended again.

However, a word of caution - I have seen re-creation theories before, and I'm not at all certain that they fit very well with the physical evidence in fossil strata etc, or the genetic evidence (in fact, they don't fit in with this at all, from my knowledge of them). So beware, this may not be a quick fix for anything at all - it may leave you further from the biblical narrative with no commensurate gain in scientific understanding.