Security of the Beliver.

[traveller]

I think it is unimportant if this thread is a well worn road, presumably those that have travelled many times before will not mind if a few others take the journey, especially as Worthyboards has a vastly fluctuating number of participants, who for one reason or another might not have not chosen until now to enter the debate. Naturally those that have come this way so often before do not have to feel obligated to participate...it is not compulsory.

On the issue of eternal salvation, I have never been able to escape the fact a birth takes place.

Nicodemus tries to unsuccessfully to relate it to a man entering its mothers womb for a second time (probably Pharasaical sarcasm because Nico was not a dimwit)

Once a person has been 'born again,' he has undergone a transformation that is permanent...his spirit is no longer dead, he has been made awake to the things of G-d, he has been translated from the Kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of Light...he can never be the same again...G-d has become real, G-d has become his 'Abba'. It is a position of sonship that involves relationship...it is a secure position...it is a permanent position that was born out of the mercy of G-d and is fully sustained by His grace.

I have at times gone all around the circuit comparing the Scriptures that suggest eternal salvation, against those that suggest a loseable salvation, but have come full circle back to the actual act of regeneration, and believe a son or daughter of G-d is a son or daughter of G-d forever.

People talk about losing ones salvation, but that discounts the actuality of sonship..it is as though 'salvation' is some throw away commodity and careless handling will incur severe retribution... but salvation flows from the position of sonship, it does not supplant it...if you like it is a symptom/indication/benefit/sign of sonship that the Holy Ghost makes real to us.

Interesting that you should make that comment about Nicodemus. I've never seen anyone actually give him credit for knowing other than what Jesus literally said. But, as the teacher, as Jesus called him, he had to have known of the language useage in the OT, of relating a physical to a spiritual. However, he thought Jesus was telling him that he had to wipe out his years of learning - his way of keeping all those laws and rituals - in other words, to begin anew as a newborn babe. This thought was revolutionary. Jesus went on to tell him another thing Nicodemus would have immediately recognized.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus was referring to this OT scripture.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Then, of course, Jesus went on to illustrate the children in the wilderness, and the people were griping and complaining until they mad the Lord angry. He sent poisonous snakes into the camp. Once bitten, the people knew they faced sure death and called out for salvation. That's when Moses (via God) held up the brass snake and told them, whosever looks on this snake will live.

But, my point here - is that these people were desperate. Their lives were at stake. The most important thing to them was to believe that looking at that snake would heal them.

That's a strong need.

Nicodemus understood the sacrifices Jesus was demanding. This was serious stuff.

I'm not putting forth yea or nay on this topic. I just wanted to say that a person must believe fully on the One he looks to. It's not easy to then turn away.

[Mudcat]

Sadly, what it typically turns into is a proof texting contest. In order to understand what the Bible teaches about any topic, we have to be willing to look at all the verses that speak to an issue. Frequently there will be verses that seem to teach different things. For example there are numerous verses that seem to teach that one cannot lose their salvation, but there are also verses that seem to teach that salvation may be lost. This is known as duality. The scriptures are full of them (Divine soveriegnty vs human responsibility, God's unity vs. His diversity etc).

The problem is that people will typically cozy up to the verses that support their position and give them more wieght than verses that challenge their position. This is a fallacy known as duality reductionalism (Making one set of verses the test by which all verses must be measured). So you end up with people really not dialogueing. They simply shoot their proof texts at each other and never really honestly address the passages that give them trouble.

This degenerates into observations being made about motives, intelligence, and spirituality to the point of being hurtful. This road has been travelled so much here that there are ruts

Hey EricH,

I appreciate you chiming in on your thoughts.

Emphasis mine, I agree that is a typical response from people so anchored in their beliefs that they can't divorce themselves from a thought....erroneous or not.

However, I would submit myself as an exception to the norm.

I am sales mgr. for a local office equipment firm. A couple of years ago, I was installing a piece of equipment at a Methodist church. The minister and I got into a discussion on beliefs, as I love to discuss this sort of thing. I sat there promulgating Baptist doctrine on OSAS.

Then the minister, she brought up the verses in Hebrews that I submitted in the OP. I remember her saying, "We can't just ignore them." The discourse went on, but the rest doesn't matter.

To tell you the truth I was dumbfounded. I have read the Bible a number of times and glided past those verses each and every time. Oblivious to the weight of them. I took pause and prayed and thought about them.

I bumped into a month ago....

We picked up our conversation again and I told her thanks for pointing them out.

I told her, I had come to a point in which I agreed with her. In essence, had it not been for her thoughts, mine would have remained unchanged.

I am not saying you have to believe what I believe.

I am simply saying....

Every now and then something shifts and changes in the person you talk to.

..... for the better.

It isn't often, but it is worthwhile.

Mudcat

Edited October 4, 2008 by Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Once I'm saved or born of God, can I still go to hell if I mess up? Consider the following.

John 6.44. "No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 10:27-29. "My sheep (Believers in Christ) hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (Notice here that we've been given to Jesus by the Father)

John 6:37-40. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Jesus won't cast us out regardless of our failures) (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Eph. 4:30. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

In the above verses, we have been given eternal life (That is God's own life without beginning or end from the moment we're born again), and Jesus says He will not let any one take us out of his hand. The Father will not let anyone take you out of His hand, and the Holy Spirit has sealed us until the day of redemption. How much more secure can we be than God telling us in His word that He is totally for us?

1 John 3:9.

[kross]

Is it possible to trust GOD too much? If I give HIM my life, is it possible HE will choose not to keep it? If I trust HIM to do what is best for me, will HE choose not to do what is best for me?

Someone once explained it to me like this, "GOD reached down into the very depth of the muck an mire of your life, picked you up and looked at you and then opened HIS hand and said Changed my mind".

The one question you have to ask is, "Just because there is a warning not to do something, does that inherantly indicate it is something that can be done"?

I often think of the warnings as something the HOLY SPIRIT uses to strengthen our resolve. Even though we are no longer under the law, we teach the law so the HOLY SPIRIT can give us further understanding of what it takes to live pleasing to our savior.

I have seen where there are many in this forum who feel that they are saved by faith but have to earn salvation by keeping the law. Those things are contradictory to me, but I understand where human logic can come to that point of view.

It comes down to the first sentence for me, I trust GOD. I walk in the belief that HE is the one who cleans me up and if there is something HE has not changed or cleaned up, that is up to HIM. I do feel that HE is faithful when i am faithless and the idea that HE would just let me choose to walk away from HIM goes against my belief that HE can be trusted.

[kross]

Kross, I completely understand your point of view. As I said, I have been around in circles with others with your belief many times over. What usually happens is that they give me a mountain of scriptures proving eternal security, and I give an alternative interpretation, followed by a large group of scriptures showing eternal security is a lie. They then come back with their alternative interpretation, and the circle continues till one of us gives up or the thread is closed. I have just gotten to the point where I see the futility of such debates. I believe there will be those in heaven who have believed in eternal security and those who have not.

True. But the person who started the string asked. I answerred. I have no need to debate it

[Mudcat]

It comes down to the first sentence for me, I trust GOD. I walk in the belief that HE is the one who cleans me up and if there is something HE has not changed or cleaned up, that is up to HIM. I do feel that HE is faithful when i am faithless and the idea that HE would just let me choose to walk away from HIM goes against my belief that HE can be trusted.

I understand, to some degree your standpoint Kross, and thanks for your thoughts.

...you seem to be a little braver than most, taking a flat stand and I value that as well.

However, given the scripture cited in Hebrews, in the OP, how do you interpret it differently?

Ultimately, my question is not can God be trusted.

Rather, can people reach a point in which they decide (after a salvific experience) they would rather have sin than salvation?

Would God honor that decision?

[OneLight]

Matthew 25 is a chapter I see as a help in understanding the answer to the question.

[irishcowboy]

I wanted to submit these verses from Hebrews. They are in my opinion the strongest support for those that believe we can loose our salvation.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I also wanted to submit these verses from John. Also in my opinion they are the strongest support for those who believe in the irrevocable nature of salvation.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

At first blush, there seems to be a great deal of dissonance between them.

Can they be brought into harmony?

I would be curious to know your interpretation of these two, seemingly disharmonious verses and your beliefs on the matter.

My vote will be for poll option 3, as this is the only way I seem to be able to bring the two statements together.

Perhaps I will be the only one in the option 3 category....but its what I think, so I put it there.

In short, I believe that we can reject the gift Christ has given us, if we so choose.

I plan discussing my own beliefs on the matter, more in depth, later in the thread.

It is quite possible that works, grace, sanctification among other things may be pertinent to these matters. So, if it gets off topic and onto these other things, I certainly won't consider it an effort to derail the thread.

did you forget about Revelation where it tells us that we are to preservere and our names will not be blotted out? like in if you do not do what your suppose to, your name can be blooted out, stricken from (as in no more) THE BOOK.....

[larryt]

I wanted to submit these verses from Hebrews. They are in my opinion the strongest support for those that believe we can loose our salvation.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I also wanted to submit these verses from John. Also in my opinion they are the strongest support for those who believe in the irrevocable nature of salvation.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

At first blush, there seems to be a great deal of dissonance between them.

Can they be brought into harmony?

I would be curious to know your interpretation of these two, seemingly disharmonious verses and your beliefs on the matter.

My vote will be for poll option 3, as this is the only way I seem to be able to bring the two statements together.

Perhaps I will be the only one in the option 3 category....but its what I think, so I put it there.

In short, I believe that we can reject the gift Christ has given us, if we so choose.

I plan discussing my own beliefs on the matter, more in depth, later in the thread.

It is quite possible that works, grace, sanctification among other things may be pertinent to these matters. So, if it gets off topic and onto these other things, I certainly won't consider it an effort to derail the thread.

Hi Mudcat,

I would be more than willing to discuss the issue with you. I will try to stay on point if you will do the same.

The security of the believer hinges entirely on the who is the object of faith. If I am trusting Jesus for EVERYTHING, and I do mean everything then I am secure. If I am trusting in myself to maintain my salvation then I am bound to lose it.

The 2 passages above can be harmonized, IMHO. It is late now so I will try to get back asap.

LT

[Deathstar 80]

I hope nobody here minds if I skip reading what others have put down already and post this. If anyone does have a problem with it, please pm me and I will stop. I have a comment about the proof given for "once saved, always saved".

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

To my understanding, you have misinterpreted what Jesus said. He is not saying that believers will always have salvation or even that they will only lose salvation if they want to. John 10:28 says that believers shall live eternally because they believed. The last two verses says that nobody else can take away a person's salvation.