slim777 Posted October 13, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/28/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1950 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 the foreknowledge of God knew that man would sin in the Garden or Eden..wonder why he later repented that he has made man...when he new before had he would become a sinner..just a thought if anyone has any things that might shed some light on this? This assumes exhaustive definite foreknowledge which is problematic in light of free will. God knew of the possibility of man's fall since love/free will necessitates the possibility (not certainty or necessity) of misusing the will in selfish rebellion. God had a perfect, potential plan of redemption that was only implemented after the Fall (Gen. 3) and did not become actual until the first century. So, God knew of the possibility, not certainty of the Fall. Originally, He said things were 'very good'. When the contingency changed, He was then grieved. A wrong view of foreknowledge compromises the reality of a very good creation that delighted God becoming a fallen one that broke His heart. There was no good excuse for the Fall in light of paradise and God's reasonable requirements. He created Lucifer, not Satan, Paradise, not pollution. Open Theism is the view that recognizes that exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not compatible with genuine libertarian free will. www.opentheism.info brother you have helped me so much to understand this question of God being sorry for making man,, and this has settled this for me and i am so thankful to a nice person like you to take time to answer my question to my profit.i love you as Christ loves us both...thank again... www.gregboyd.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 not so, what about sodom and gomorrah - God said He would change his mind if 1 righteous man could be found? is God facetious? i don't think so.No, that is not what God said. God said He would spare them if He found 10 righteous. God already knew He would not. He was testing Abraham. also, most of the prophets, speaking God's words, warn of an if/then situation. i can think of many instances in scripture of God stating either "I will repent", or "I will not repent". another one that comes to mind besides sodom is the prophet jonah at whatever town that was. God changed his mind then.Not so. God left Ninevah with a choice. God did not say I am going to destroy Ninevah and take it back. God said told Jonah to to tell Ninevah to repent so that He would not have to destroy them. Had Ninevah not repented at the preaching of Jonah, they would have been destroyed. God's action was contingent on their response. That is not a case of changing one's mind. another time God relented is when the people wanted more than 1 wife. another time when God relented is when the people wanted a king.No, because first of all, God never forbade more than one wife. Secondly God allowed them to have a king, but He never changed His mind. He did not forbid them to have a king, in fact, the Torah forseeing this already made provision for Israel to have an earthly king, in Deut. 17. So God did not change His mind on that either. in response to changing contingencies. i can see your point, too, of course. you're correct in saying that God didn't suddenly realize he had made a bad decision but had already announced in advance what he would or wouldn't do based on what the people decided.Which is also the case in with Jonah. what i'd like to know, considering these examples is why is that the classic view when it is clear that God has repented, has relented and has changed his mind based on contingencies? In the book of Numbers it says that God doesn't change his mind: God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? (Numbers 23:19) Therefore, any reading of "repent" as used in connection with God's attributes cannot mean "change of mind." God does not change His mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted October 13, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange that we've had now at least three threads based upon this subject? Are we not making any progress here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange that we've had now at least three threads based upon this subject? Are we not making any progress here? Not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted October 13, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2008 The question asked in the opening post was; "explain why God was sorry he made man?" Why ask a question God Himself answers? "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them" (Gen. 6:5-7). "the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" There's no talking ones way around the answer. Had God known that, "the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" He would not have created man and thereby he would not have had to destroy man. No where in Scripture does it say I will create man who I know will become so wicked that evey imagination of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually, that man will upset me so much that I will become sorry I have created man and I will destroy man from of the face of the earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted October 13, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange that we've had now at least three threads based upon this subject? Are we not making any progress here? Not really. I can't understand why. Is it really a prevalent idea in the church that God changed His mind in those cases? I see that HAZARD is responding as I type this....Is there also a prevalent notion in the church that God is imperfect, that He is, in fact, not onmiscient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Had God known that, "the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" He would not have created man and thereby he would not have had to destroy man. No where in Scripture does it say I will create man who I know will become so wicked that evey imagination of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually, that man will upset me so much that I will become sorry I have created man and I will destroy man from of the face of the earth? But you have to redefine key terms and avoid the original language to arrive at the conclusions you arrive at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted October 13, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Had God known that, "the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" He would not have created man and thereby he would not have had to destroy man. No where in Scripture does it say I will create man who I know will become so wicked that evey imagination of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually, that man will upset me so much that I will become sorry I have created man and I will destroy man from of the face of the earth? Argument from a vacuum. The lack of something in the Bible does not prove a positive argument. HAZARD is assuming that God would not have created man in the first place, with the foreknowledge of the fall and of man's wickedness. There is no evidence that He would have held back creation for the sake of His foreknowledge of events. To HAZARD God cannot be God, because He is not all-knowing (Omniscient). If God is not omniscient than He cannot be omnipresent (present in all places at all times), because if He were omnipresent then He would know the future by virtue of being there to witness events. If God is not omniscient and omnipresent then He cannot be omnipotent (all-powerful), because God's authority over all things requires His knowledge and presence. HAZARD, your god is not the God of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted October 13, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted October 13, 2008 the foreknowledge of God knew that man would sin in the Garden or Eden..wonder why he later repented that he has made man...when he new before had he would become a sinner..just a thought if anyone has any things that might shed some light on this? Where does it say he repenteds that he made man?..scripture please...thanks. A Hebrew word study is in order. In the classic view, God is absolutely immutable, so He cannot repent, relent, change His mind. Yet, about 40 x God does claim to change His mind in response to changing contingencies. There is no reason to make this figurative except to retain a wrong idea. Gen. 6:6-7 see other versions That is not true. God never changes His mind. The word resent is never used to mean that God suddenly realized He made a bad decision and decided that He was previosly wrong (which is what changing the mind means) and changed His mode of thinking. The Bible NEVER presents God in that light. Your reasoning is based on what you think God can and cannot do. Any personal being can change their minds or they are not personal and free. God allowed Saul to be king based on present reality. This was a reasonable, wise choice at the time (cf. creating man). When Saul and Adam went bad, God changed his mind and regretted things. This does not mean God makes a mistake. He would be foolish and unwise not to change His mind in this case. As contingencies change, so God must respond. He is dynamic, not static. As a parent, I can promise to take my kids to Disneyland if they get good grades, save money, clean their rooms. At the time, this is good. If they keep their end of the bargain, away we go. If they do not, then I change my mind and say we will not go. This is wise parenting, not proof I was dumb or wrong. The Bible uses the phrase of God changing his mind in several places. In I Sam. 15, God changes his mind about one thing, yet refuses to change His mind about another matter. Both motifs are in Scripture. Will not is not the same as cannot. You are forced to make one truth literal, while making the other one figurative, without warrant (just to retain a flawed misconception). If you look at all the contexts of God changing his mind (explicit language), you will not be able to retain your view. I suspect you are not aware of these passages. http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/open-theism/res...thropomorphism/ Was God changing His mind an anthropomorphism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted October 13, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange that we've had now at least three threads based upon this subject? Are we not making any progress here? Not really. I can't understand why. Is it really a prevalent idea in the church that God changed His mind in those cases? I see that HAZARD is responding as I type this....Is there also a prevalent notion in the church that God is imperfect, that He is, in fact, not onmiscient? In both views, God is fully omniscient. He knows all that is logically possible to know. Just because God cannot create a rock too heavy to lift (logical contradiction/absurdity) does not mean that He is not omnipotent (can do all that is doable). Just because God does not know what Alice in Wonderland is doing right now does not make Him less than omniscient. We differ as to possible objects of certain knowledge (contingencies and future free will choices have an element of uncertainty and are correctly known as such; God could have made a deterministic universe with a settled future, but He did not do so; exhaustive definite foreknowledge and future free will contingencies is a logical contradiction; either man does not have freedom and is a robot, or the content of God's omniscience is voluntarily limited). To not know a nothing is not a deficiency in God (the future does not exist yet and is at least partially open/unsettled). So, we differ as to the nature of creation (open or closed), not whether He is omniscient or not (He is!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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