Which "We" or "us" do he mean?

[kross]

In the beginning of each letter/epistle is a salutation of who the letter is written to. Therefore, every place in the letter where the word "We" or "Us" is used, it must be inferred that it means the group who the author has written to that the author considers himself a part of.

So, taken to the point, "We" or "US" refers ONLY to the saints/ the Saved/ Those who are in CHRIST. When a person reads the letters from Paul, that person needs to understand that this letter is written specifically to them. It is a letter speifically written in such a way that "We" and "US" means the reader (if the reader is saved) and Paul. It can not be understood any other way. It is absolutely a violation of english (or Greek) writing laws to change the meaning of those words in the course of reading a letter.

Well if you operate from the assumption that words like "We" or "us" only refers to "the group who the author has written to," then it would only refer to original audiences.

You are trying to create a false exclucivity that it does not appear Paul was trying to communicate. I can use terms like "us" or "we" in terms that do not exclude anyone else.

I can say that Jesus died for "me" without excluding the guy down the street. The use of terms like "we" or "us" absent any qualifiers (which Paul never employs) is not exclusionary, generally speaking.

That logic flies in the face of the simple rules of the english language. If I write a letter to someone who has undergone athesame experience as I have, then everywhere in the letter where I use the word WE would mean that person and I.

You do not change subject matter in the middle of a sentence, or a letter without qualifying the change. Paul never qualifies the use of "WE" or "US" to mean anyone other than those the letter is written to. If he had intended a change of subject or meaning, he would have said them or those, or atleast added them to the subject mater of the letter in some way.

If you want to say that the letters only refer to the specific people in those specific churches at that specific time, then do not read them as being for you today.

As a rule, because they were copied and distributed to all the churches and all the believers of the time, and since they discuss the issues that are specific to those saved by faith in JESUS CHRIST, orthodox Christians except that they have a timeless (Greek perfect tense) aspect to them.

But, they are written to and about Christians. As Paul directed them to "The Saints".

[kross]

Hello my reply to all of this is that study is good however we must come like a little child..... A little child is innocent and should be care free.. They do not understand sentence structurd or context or many of the other tools we use to study God's word they just read and accept it as truth the way they understand it at reading and you know what ... God honors them, protects them and helps them grow. So I recommend we come as a child before him...

I THINK SOMETIMES WE TRY TO COMPLICATE THINGS TO MUCH.... THUS THE OLD SONG JUST AS I AM I COME.. AMEN

Yes, we should come as a child, and then we should grow into mature Christians, rightly dividing the word of truth

Yes I agree and I know mature Christians do not fuss over words.. In fact it genders strife .. I agree we should always be growing

Zabby, are you saying that Christians should not try to gain a greater understanding of GOD's words? Because all we have are words. If there is misunderstanding of those words, should we not continue to strive to close the gap of that understanding? Isn't that why we s\listen to teachers and preachers? So we can more clearly understand words?

How do you mature without understanding words?

[kross]

I agree with you that I have likely bent this scripture to fit what all the rest of scripture teaches. I have torn it apart, put it back together,

You can't do that.

You can't twist scripture in order to make it fit into your way of thinking.

Doing so makes you a false teacher. You're not teaching the Word, you're teaching a distorted twisted version of the truth.

You even took that out of the context of what where it was written. Through study and hard work, I have come to understand that this verse does not say what I thought it said when I understood it as you do now. It is the only verse in all of scripture that truly is difficalt to understand in the light of the 100+ scriptures that teach election and predestination.

the biblical doctrines of election and predestine pertain to what God has predestined Christians to become. The unbiblical doctrine of "Predestination" is a man made myth that asserts that God predestines some sinners to be saved.

This is a reasonably well spoken thought. I have a greater understanding of how you see and interpret the scriptures.

I will, as I read my Bible, test this understanding with the 100+ verses of the Bible that discuss Calling, election, chosen, predestination to see if this interpretation of them could be reasonable. That will take a year or so. Until then, I will have to continue in what I am convinced the scriptures say.

[Guest shiloh357]

That logic flies in the face of the simple rules of the english language. If I write a letter to someone who has undergone athesame experience as I have, then everywhere in the letter where I use the word WE would mean that person and I.

Yes, but you are comparing two dissimilar things. You are trying to compare a letter to person with whom you have something in common within a limited scope of experience.

You do not change subject matter in the middle of a sentence, or a letter without qualifying the change. Paul never qualifies the use of "WE" or "US" to mean anyone other than those the letter is written to.

If that is your position, then it would be impossible to apply Paul's letters beyond the specific congregations to whom they were written, thus ommitting Christians of any other generation to follow. Paul clearly did mean his statements to apply to ONLY the original audience, but that is where your mishandling of the English language leads to if we follow it through.

If you want to say that the letters only refer to the specific people in those specific churches at that specific time, then do not read them as being for you today.

I am not saying that. I am saying that your approach leads to that conclusion.

Nothing in Paul's letters indicate that Jesus died ONLY for those who He chose to be saved. The Bible never says God chose some to save and others to condemn. That is bascially junk theology.

As a rule, because they were copied and distributed to all the churches and all the believers of the time, and since they discuss the issues that are specific to those saved by faith in JESUS CHRIST, orthodox Christians except that they have a timeless (Greek perfect tense) aspect to them.

Actually, they speak of issues common to all of humanity such as spiritual death, separation from God, guilt, shame condemnation, etc. Paul's letters highlight mankind's common spiritual condition as well as the common spiritual redemedy for that spiritual condition.

The Bible never speaks of redemption in exclusive terms. You are reading YOUR theology into the Bible.

[Guest zabby]

Hello my reply to all of this is that study is good however we must come like a little child..... A little child is innocent and should be care free.. They do not understand sentence structurd or context or many of the other tools we use to study God's word they just read and accept it as truth the way they understand it at reading and you know what ... God honors them, protects them and helps them grow. So I recommend we come as a child before him...

I THINK SOMETIMES WE TRY TO COMPLICATE THINGS TO MUCH.... THUS THE OLD SONG JUST AS I AM I COME.. AMEN

Yes, we should come as a child, and then we should grow into mature Christians, rightly dividing the word of truth

Yes I agree and I know mature Christians do not fuss over words.. In fact it genders strife .. I agree we should always be growing

Zabby, are you saying that Christians should not try to gain a greater understanding of GOD's words? Because all we have are words. If there is misunderstanding of those words, should we not continue to strive to close the gap of that understanding? Isn't that why we s\listen to teachers and preachers? So we can more clearly understand words?

How do you mature without understanding words?

I think we must study to increase our skill and knowledge in the handling of the language for sure. Words are very important, actions are very important one without the other causes folks to only get half of a picture but when both words and actions line up --wow now that is power. I have just come to believe aand know not to stirr up strife words ... Because we know in part even on our best day. I tend to think that you should be able to sit and litens to my view point and I should be able to listen to your viewpoint without strife. Maybe it is just me, but sometimes when I read some of the posts they seem kind of sharp and cutting of course that could have to do with the medium we are using to try to communicate one with the other and so much is left out because there is no body language. I don't know my friend. I think we should have mercy on one the other and show kind understanding if we can..... Sorry if I said something wrong to you.... I think at first someone got us mixes up ... have a blessed evening.......

[kross]

That logic flies in the face of the simple rules of the english language. If I write a letter to someone who has undergone athesame experience as I have, then everywhere in the letter where I use the word WE would mean that person and I.

Yes, but you are comparing two dissimilar things. You are trying to compare a letter to person with whom you have something in common within a limited scope of experience.

You do not change subject matter in the middle of a sentence, or a letter without qualifying the change. Paul never qualifies the use of "WE" or "US" to mean anyone other than those the letter is written to.

If that is your position, then it would be impossible to apply Paul's letters beyond the specific congregations to whom they were written, thus ommitting Christians of any other generation to follow. Paul clearly did mean his statements to apply to ONLY the original audience, but that is where your mishandling of the English language leads to if we follow it through.

If you want to say that the letters only refer to the specific people in those specific churches at that specific time, then do not read them as being for you today.

I am not saying that. I am saying that your approach leads to that conclusion.

Nothing in Paul's letters indicate that Jesus died ONLY for those who He chose to be saved. The Bible never says God chose some to save and others to condemn. That is bascially junk theology.

As a rule, because they were copied and distributed to all the churches and all the believers of the time, and since they discuss the issues that are specific to those saved by faith in JESUS CHRIST, orthodox Christians except that they have a timeless (Greek perfect tense) aspect to them.

Actually, they speak of issues common to all of humanity such as spiritual death, separation from God, guilt, shame condemnation, etc. Paul's letters highlight mankind's common spiritual condition as well as the common spiritual redemedy for that spiritual condition.

The Bible never speaks of redemption in exclusive terms. You are reading YOUR theology into the Bible.

This has been an education. Now that I understand your understanding of the written language, I can see (sort of) how you arrive at your conclusions.

I can also see that will not change. At least i know now where it comes from.

As far as "nothing in Paul's letters indicating" that. I have already pointed to the implication/indication/straight forward can not mean anything else verses in the first two chapters of Ephesians. I understand that you read english differently than i do and thus you will not understand it as I do. I understand that. I wish there was a way that we could all read it the same way. I guess there isn't.

What I know of the written english language tells me that the way you understand sintax and structure will bring you to a different understanding of what is written than the way i have learned english. Thus, we may never agree because we do not comprehend sentence structure in the same way.

That has been a very valuable lesson and is at the very heart of the reason for the first post of this thread. If we can not agree to the meaning of the words "WE" and "US", then we can not get to a point of any agreement.

HIS peace, love, and guidance to you

KROSS

[kross]

Hello my reply to all of this is that study is good however we must come like a little child..... A little child is innocent and should be care free.. They do not understand sentence structurd or context or many of the other tools we use to study God's word they just read and accept it as truth the way they understand it at reading and you know what ... God honors them, protects them and helps them grow. So I recommend we come as a child before him...

I THINK SOMETIMES WE TRY TO COMPLICATE THINGS TO MUCH.... THUS THE OLD SONG JUST AS I AM I COME.. AMEN

Yes, we should come as a child, and then we should grow into mature Christians, rightly dividing the word of truth

Yes I agree and I know mature Christians do not fuss over words.. In fact it genders strife .. I agree we should always be growing

Zabby, are you saying that Christians should not try to gain a greater understanding of GOD's words? Because all we have are words. If there is misunderstanding of those words, should we not continue to strive to close the gap of that understanding? Isn't that why we s\listen to teachers and preachers? So we can more clearly understand words?

How do you mature without understanding words?

I think we must study to increase our skill and knowledge in the handling of the language for sure. Words are very important, actions are very important one without the other causes folks to only get half of a picture but when both words and actions line up --wow now that is power. I have just come to believe aand know not to stirr up strife words ... Because we know in part even on our best day. I tend to think that you should be able to sit and litens to my view point and I should be able to listen to your viewpoint without strife. Maybe it is just me, but sometimes when I read some of the posts they seem kind of sharp and cutting of course that could have to do with the medium we are using to try to communicate one with the other and so much is left out because there is no body language. I don't know my friend. I think we should have mercy on one the other and show kind understanding if we can..... Sorry if I said something wrong to you.... I think at first someone got us mixes up ... have a blessed evening.......

I think that sometimes, when reading posts, we misunderstand the emotions of the posts. I write in straight forward point of fact manner. I try to impart understanding. IF you read the last couple of post of this string, you will see that a very huge bit of understanding came from it.

If we can not agree to understand the simple use of a word like "WE" or "US" because we have completely different understanding of the written english language, then we will inevitably come to completely different conclusions fron reading the same materials.

Unity of spirit an understanding will have a hard time exisiting in such confusion.

You did not say anything wrong to me. I, like many teachers, use questions to get someone to look closer at what they have said. I doubt that you meant it the way it read but, when in this forum,words are all we have.

On the other hand, there is a certain someone who comes here to disagree and pick. Sometimes that looks a little like argueing and figting.

HIS peace and love to you

[Guest man]

On the other hand, there is a certain someone who comes here to disagree and pick.

[Guest zabby]

Hello my reply to all of this is that study is good however we must come like a little child..... A little child is innocent and should be care free.. They do not understand sentence structurd or context or many of the other tools we use to study God's word they just read and accept it as truth the way they understand it at reading and you know what ... God honors them, protects them and helps them grow. So I recommend we come as a child before him...

I THINK SOMETIMES WE TRY TO COMPLICATE THINGS TO MUCH.... THUS THE OLD SONG JUST AS I AM I COME.. AMEN

Yes, we should come as a child, and then we should grow into mature Christians, rightly dividing the word of truth

Yes I agree and I know mature Christians do not fuss over words.. In fact it genders strife .. I agree we should always be growing

Zabby, are you saying that Christians should not try to gain a greater understanding of GOD's words? Because all we have are words. If there is misunderstanding of those words, should we not continue to strive to close the gap of that understanding? Isn't that why we s\listen to teachers and preachers? So we can more clearly understand words?

How do you mature without understanding words?

I think we must study to increase our skill and knowledge in the handling of the language for sure. Words are very important, actions are very important one without the other causes folks to only get half of a picture but when both words and actions line up --wow now that is power. I have just come to believe aand know not to stirr up strife words ... Because we know in part even on our best day. I tend to think that you should be able to sit and litens to my view point and I should be able to listen to your viewpoint without strife. Maybe it is just me, but sometimes when I read some of the posts they seem kind of sharp and cutting of course that could have to do with the medium we are using to try to communicate one with the other and so much is left out because there is no body language. I don't know my friend. I think we should have mercy on one the other and show kind understanding if we can..... Sorry if I said something wrong to you.... I think at first someone got us mixes up ... have a blessed evening.......

I think that sometimes, when reading posts, we misunderstand the emotions of the posts. I write in straight forward point of fact manner. I try to impart understanding. IF you read the last couple of post of this string, you will see that a very huge bit of understanding came from it.

If we can not agree to understand the simple use of a word like "WE" or "US" because we have completely different understanding of the written english language, then we will inevitably come to completely different conclusions fron reading the same materials.

Unity of spirit an understanding will have a hard time exisiting in such confusion.

You did not say anything wrong to me. I, like many teachers, use questions to get someone to look closer at what they have said. I doubt that you meant it the way it read but, when in this forum,words are all we have.

On the other hand, there is a certain someone who comes here to disagree and pick. Sometimes that looks a little like argueing and figting.

HIS peace and love to you

Kross I was in active ministry for over 30years and still prusue higher formal education. For me I have learned that even though folks consider me a teacher and a leader I conside myself a follower of Jesus'. I really value words and as you say this is a different medium even how you type a word says something... Usually when I hit all caps it means either I accidently hit the caps lock key or maybe I just meant to put more emphasis on that one word... I make an effort to speak sweetly online because I am older now and I just do not want to argue but I do really enjoy reading other peoples opinions and thoughts. It gives me a different view point. Like in the movie "Dead Poets Society" when the Captain had each student stand on top of the desk and look at the same room from a different view point. It is marvelous to me how wonderfully our minds work. I am sill active in ministry somewhat but as age and a tuff physical accident has taken a hold of me I am more limited now than I was at say 45 even.. When I moved to Ohio one year a husband who had passed away had his name or mine on the title, the state of OHIO told me they did not recognize the word OR so I had to go back to California where they recognise the word or and change the title so that I could go to Ohio and change the title allowing me to drive... Until that moment I had always thought of Ohio as a state and a member of the United States but now I wonder? That was all over one little word cost me a lot of money and it really was silly. So I just do not think we should argue over words. Just my thought. Thank you for your reply.

Peace and grace abound to you also Kross

Your sister in the Lord Jesus

Zabby

[Guest shiloh357]

What I know of the written english language tells me that the way you understand sintax and structure will bring you to a different understanding of what is written than the way i have learned english. Thus, we may never agree because we do not comprehend sentence structure in the same way.

It has nothing to do with "sentence structure." That is not what we are talking about.

The issue is the intent of the author. You have failed to demonstrate conclusively that Paul intended EVERY use of "we" or "us" in the His epistles to be seen as exclusive to those God chose to be saved. You are supplying that value to Paul's letters based upon what amounts to this ridiculous, unbiblical notion that God chose in advance who to save and who not to save.

Your assertion is based on church positions as opposed to the plain sense of many passages like John 3:16 which very simply declares God's grace is available to all people, the whole world, not to some select few.

In every reference to predestination, it always, without exception, refers to God's predestined agenda for Christians AFTER they get saved. Nothing in anywhere indicates that God intends to bar any human being from salvation. Predestination NEVER pertains to sinners getting saved, or will or will not be allowed to be saved.