Which "We" or "us" do he mean?

[kross]

What I know of the written english language tells me that the way you understand sintax and structure will bring you to a different understanding of what is written than the way i have learned english. Thus, we may never agree because we do not comprehend sentence structure in the same way.

It has nothing to do with "sentence structure." That is not what we are talking about.

The issue is the intent of the author. You have failed to demonstrate conclusively that Paul intended EVERY use of "we" or "us" in the His epistles to be seen as exclusive to those God chose to be saved. You are supplying that value to Paul's letters based upon what amounts to this ridiculous, unbiblical notion that God chose in advance who to save and who not to save.

Your assertion is based on church positions as opposed to the plain sense of many passages like John 3:16 which very simply declares God's grace is available to all people, the whole world, not to some select few.

In every reference to predestination, it always, without exception, refers to God's predestined agenda for Christians AFTER they get saved. Nothing in anywhere indicates that God intends to bar any human being from salvation. Predestination NEVER pertains to sinners getting saved, or will or will not be allowed to be saved.

Shiloh, Even Paul draws the distinction clearly in Ephesians. In Ephesians 2:1 he brings the world into the discussion and then establishes that the "WE" and "US" of his letter are those who he sent the letter to (ie. "The Saints") He does the same thing in Romans when he states, "They have a zeal..." referring to someone else and then returns to the use of WE or US for those the letter is written to, of which he considers himself a part of.

Now, I gaurantee you that if you coppied the last 5 or 6 back and forths we have had, take them to any english professor, he would tell you that what I have explained to you is absolute truth. The english language does not work the way you have chosen to use it.

John 3:16 is part of a teaching that JESUS ends by explaining that the only ones who come to the light do so in GOD. You can take it out of that context and give it any meaning you want, but in context...

You may find a way to still believe what you do in the light of that fact, but the fact remains, Paul is writing to the saved and everywhere he uses WE or US means the saved ONLY.

Isn't it fun that we can not even agree on the meaning of a two letter word. Now I see why there are such divisions in the body of CHRIST.

Peace

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, Even Paul draws the distinction clearly in Ephesians. In Ephesians 2:1 he brings the world into the discussion and then establishes that the "WE" and "US" of his letter are those who he sent the letter to (ie. "The Saints") He does the same thing in Romans when he states, "They have a zeal..." referring to someone else and then returns to the use of WE or US for those the letter is written to, of which he considers himself a part of.

You are missing the point. What you need to establish is that Paul used "we" or "us" in the sense of being chosen to the exclusion of those outside of the redeemed community. You are assigning a false value to Paul's usage of those terms. I understand that there are things about the redeemed community that are peculiar to us and us alone. I am not debating that at all. The problem is your assumption that Paul uses the term "us" or "we" to mean "those who were chosen to be saved." The Bible NEVER refers to salvation in such an exclusive sense.

Now, I garantee you that if you coppied the last 5 or 6 back and forths we have had, take them to any english professor, he would tell you that what I have explained to you is absolute truth.

What he would point out is that you are speaking past what I am trying to say.

You may find a way to still believe what you do in the light of that fact, but the fact remains, Paul is writing to the saved and everywhere he uses WE or US means the saved ONLY.

That is not issue I am debating. I am challenging the false notion that "us" and "we" refer to reemed community as a community chosen to be saved to the exlcusion of a group of sinners God has pre-ordained to have no opportunity to be saved. Jesus never taught that, none of the apostles, including Paul, ever taught that. That is a false value you and other men have assigned to the Scriptures.

Isn't it fun that we can not even agree on the meaning of a two letter word. Now I see why there are such divisions in the body of CHRIST.

Actually what is more fun is the fact I am not debating over the meaning of a word, but the application of it, and you are evidently intellectually illequipped to understand the difference between the two.

[kross]

Shiloh, Even Paul draws the distinction clearly in Ephesians. In Ephesians 2:1 he brings the world into the discussion and then establishes that the "WE" and "US" of his letter are those who he sent the letter to (ie. "The Saints") He does the same thing in Romans when he states, "They have a zeal..." referring to someone else and then returns to the use of WE or US for those the letter is written to, of which he considers himself a part of.

You are missing the point. What you need to establish is that Paul used "we" or "us" in the sense of being chosen to the exclusion of those outside of the redeemed community. You are assigning a false value to Paul's usage of those terms. I understand that there are things about the redeemed community that are peculiar to us and us alone. I am not debating that at all. The problem is your assumption that Paul uses the term "us" or "we" to mean "those who were chosen to be saved." The Bible NEVER refers to salvation in such a exclusive sense.

Now, I garantee you that if you coppied the last 5 or 6 back and forths we have had, take them to any english professor, he would tell you that what I have explained to you is absolute truth.

What he would point out is that you are speaking past what I am trying to say.

You may find a way to still believe what you do in the light of that fact, but the fact remains, Paul is writing to the saved and everywhere he uses WE or US means the saved ONLY.

That is not issue I am debating. I am challenging the false notion that "us" and "we" refer to reemed community as a community chosen to be saved to the exlcusion of a group of sinners God has pre-ordained have no opportunity to be saved. Jesus never said that, and Paul never said that. That is a false value you and other men have assigned to the Scriptures.

Isn't it fun that we can not even agree on the meaning of a two letter word. Now I see why there are such divisions in the body of CHRIST.

Actually what is more fun is the fact I am not debating over the meaning of a word, but the application of it, and you are evidently intellectually illequipped to understand the difference between the two.

OK,

This s becoming a circle. EPH 1:4-5 HE chose US in HIM before the foundations of the world..Predestined us to adoption... (note that) predestine US to ADOPTION...

JESUS said all tht the FAther had given to HIM would come to HIM. That does indicate that the ones who do not come were not given to HIM to begin with. JESUS also said HIS sheep hear HIS voice and will not follow another. HE also stated that "You can not understand my words because you are not of my FATHER, you are of your father the devil. JESUS also said, "No-one has seen the FATher EXCEPT THE son AND WHOM THE son CHOOSES.

I am often fascinated by your arogance and pride. You are so convinced that you are above everyone and you have perfect understanding. The greatest theologians of Christianity have debated this issue for 400 years and yet you know for certain that those far more learned and educated than you are wrong.

You are the one who is wrong and teaching error. You clearly do not understand the rudimentary concepts of english yet you presume to tell me that I am talking past your point.

The point is, Paul in the first three chapter of Ephesians teaches in very concise language that salvation is a gift from GOD given to those who HE chose in JESUS before the foundations of the world. That is a fact. He teaches the same thing in Romans chapters 8-14. Unmistakeable, undeniable clear teaching of GOD's electing and choosing and even hardening the hearts of whom HE chooses. In both the letters to the corinthians he explains time and time again about their being called, chosen, elect.

You have tired me out. I can not begin to understand how a person who chooses to ignor the very clear teaching of over 100 passages of scripture to embrace a doctrin from a couple of unclear passages, will tell someone they are twisting scripture to fit something unbiblical. You simply amaze me.

I will take my "Intellectually ill equipped" self away from your superior brain and go talk to people who understand, or at least want to understand ENGLISH.

[Guest shiloh357]

OK,

This s becoming a circle. EPH 1:4-5 HE chose US in HIM before the foundations of the world..Predestined us to adoption... (note that) predestine US to ADOPTION...

Let's look at the entire verse in its natural context:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

He is not talking about sinners being predestined or chosen for salvation. He is speaking to Christians and tell them that God has chosen us "IN HIM" (not while were sinners, but after salvation) before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame.

Secondly in verse 5, it refers to being predestined unto "adoption." Who is He predestinating? He is predestinating US, we who are Christians. What is He predestinating us to? Adoption. What is Adoption???

Adoption is something that none of us have experienced yet. The biblical word adoption does not mean the same thing as it means in our modern culture where we go through legal transactions to adopt a child.

Paul defines adoption in Romans 8:23:

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23)

The redemption of our body refers to the final stage of the glorification of the believer when we will receive our immortal, glorified bodies. This is what God has predistined us for according to Ephesians 1:5. It is the same word in Greek and the same subject matter and context.

Paul even earlier in Romans 8 makes the connection between adoption and our glorified bodies:

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

(Romans 8:14-19)

God has predestined CHRISTIANS unto adoption and has given us the Holy Spirit as the earnest (Eph. 1:14) and guarantor of the future adoption. The word predestination is found in only two books of the Bible, Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5,11. In both texts, predestinationis not referring people being saved or lost, but rather of position or privilege to be shared in the future by those who are already saved.

JESUS said all tht the FAther had given to HIM would come to HIM. That does indicate that the ones who do not come were not given to HIM to begin with. JESUS also said HIS sheep hear HIS voice and will not follow another. HE also stated that "You can not understand my words because you are not of my FATHER, you are of your father the devil. JESUS also said, "No-one has seen the FATher EXCEPT THE son AND WHOM THE son CHOOSES.

Again, with the assumptions and false values. Nothing in that hack job of Scripture indicates that God chooses who will or will not be saved. None of those chopped up references say anything about being chosen for salvation sometime in eternity past.

When Jesus said "you are of your Father the Devil," He was speaking only to a select group of religious leaders who were His enemies and antagonists. He was not referring to all the unsaved.

There is no way that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross can in any way be limited to paying only for the sins of a chosen few. In order to bring salvation to a single indiviual and save this person from hell, Jesus had to pay the entire penalty demanded by God's infinite justice for sin. Accoriding to definition, the sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary paid the penalty for sin itself which dangles over the head of the entire, corporate human race.

In other words, to save only the elect, God's wrath against the sin of all mankind would have to satisfied. Nothing in the Bible ever states that Jesus bore the pentalty of sin for a select few.

I can not begin to understand how a person who chooses to ignor the very clear teaching of over 100 passages of scripture to embrace a doctrin from a couple of unclear passages, will tell someone they are twisting scripture to fit something unbiblical. You simply amaze me.

I don't ignore them. I simply employ better heremeneutics than you.

The greatest theologians of Christianity have debated this issue for 400 years and yet you know for certain that those far more learned and educated than you are wrong.

Sorry, but their words and opinions are not Scripture and are as open and subject to scrutiny as mine or anyone else's. Furthermore, there are plenty of scholars who are just as educated as your proponents are, who see it differently.

The difference between me and you is that I don't carp over what this or that theologian says. I think for myself and I use proper hermeneutics in concert with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[kross]

OK,

This s becoming a circle. EPH 1:4-5 HE chose US in HIM before the foundations of the world..Predestined us to adoption... (note that) predestine US to ADOPTION...

Let's look at the entire verse in its natural context:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

He is not talking about sinners being predestined or chosen for salvation. He is speaking to Christians and tell them that God has chosen us "IN HIM" (not while were sinners, but after salvation) before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame.

Secondly in verse 5, it refers to being predestined unto "adoption." Who is He predestinating? He is predestinating US, we who are Christians. What is He predestinating us to? Adoption. What is Adoption???

Adoption is something that none of us have experienced yet. The biblical word adoption does not mean the same thing as it means in our modern culture where we go through legal transactions to adopt a child.

Paul defines adoption in Romans 8:23:

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23)

The redemption of our body refers to the final stage of the glorification of the believer when we will receive our immortal, glorified bodies. This is what God has predistined us for according to Ephesians 1:5. It is the same word in Greek and the same subject matter and context.

Paul even earlier in Romans 8 makes the connection between adoption and our glorified bodies:

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

(Romans 8:14-19)

God has predestined CHRISTIANS unto adoption and has given us the Holy Spirit as the earnest (Eph. 1:14) and guarantor of the future adoption. The word predestination is found in only two books of the Bible, Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5,11. In both texts predestination speaks not of people being lost or saved, but rather of position or privilege to be shared in the future by those who are already saved.

JESUS said all tht the FAther had given to HIM would come to HIM. That does indicate that the ones who do not come were not given to HIM to begin with. JESUS also said HIS sheep hear HIS voice and will not follow another. HE also stated that "You can not understand my words because you are not of my FATHER, you are of your father the devil. JESUS also said, "No-one has seen the FATher EXCEPT THE son AND WHOM THE son CHOOSES.

Again, with the assumptions and false values. Nothing in that hack job of Scripture indicates that God chooses who will or will not be saved. None of those chopped up references say anything about being chosen for salvation sometime in eternity past.

When Jesus said "you are of your Father the Devil," He was speaking only to a select group of religious leaders who His enemies and antagonists. He was not referring to a total body of humanity.

There is no way that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross can in any way be limited to paying only for the sins of a chosen few. In order to bring salvation to a single indiviual and save this person from hell, Jesus had to pay the entire penalty demanded by God's infinite justice for sin. Accoriding to definition, the sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary paid the penalty for sin itself which dangles over the head of the entire, corporate human race.

In other words, to save only the elect, God's wrath against the sin of all mankind would have to satisfied. Nothing in the Bible ever states that Jesus bore the pentalty of sin for a select few.

I can not begin to understand how a person who chooses to ignor the very clear teaching of over 100 passages of scripture to embrace a doctrin from a couple of unclear passages, will tell someone they are twisting scripture to fit something unbiblical. You simply amaze me.

I don't ignore them. I simply employ better heremeneutics than you.

The greatest theologians of Christianity have debated this issue for 400 years and yet you know for certain that those far more learned and educated than you are wrong.

Sorry, but their words and opinions are not Scripture and are as open and subject to scrutiny has mine or anyone elses. Furthermore, there are plenty of scholars who are just as educated as your proponents are, who see it differently.

The difference between me and you is that I don't carp over what this or that Theologian says. I think for myself and I use proper hermeneutics in concert with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You have made a point of telling me that I am intelectually illequipped to understand you. I have taken that to mean you are an arogant, prideful person incapable of learning. So, I have no respect for you and i am sure that your LORD is very proud of you.

Do me a favor and never respond to anything i write again. My IQ is 40 points higher than your, gauranteed, and I have tried to speak to tou as an equal. As much as I have had to lower myself to your intellect, I just can not get that low.

[Guest shiloh357]

You have made a point of telling me that I am intelectually illequipped to understand you.

No, I was referring to your refusal to actually address the issue I raised. You are unwilling to see that the problem with your position is that it is based not on grammar but on application. I have taken great pains to make it clear to you, but you are either incapable or unwilling to understand. I was giving you benefit of the doubt.

I have taken that to mean you are an arogant, prideful person incapable of learning.

The only person demonstrating a lack of desire to learn is you. You don't know difference between what words mean vs. how they are applied, which shows where you are lacking in heremeneutic understanding of those texts. You are intellectually illequipped. That does not mean your stupid. I am intellectually illequipped to understand imuno chemistry or molecular biology. I am intellectually illequipped to discuss Shakespeare's Mac Beth. You are assigning a value to my words just like you are doing to Paul.

So, I have no respect for you

I have no need of, nor do I desire your respect.

Do me a favor and never respond to anything i write again.

I will respond in whatever thread and to whomever I choose.

My IQ is 40 points higher than your, gauranteed, and I have tried to speak to tou as an equal. As much as I have had to lower myself to your intellect, I just can not get that low.

Sorry, but your lack of command over the simplest rules of literary analysis coupled with your deficiencies in basic reading comprehension kind of gives an empty ring to your boasting about your IQ. But I understand... You need to put others down to make yourself feel better since you can't actually formulate a substantive or meaningful response.

[kross]

For those who are going to read this string to the end, here is a summary of the conversation;

After some back and forth, Shiloh finally did agree that "WE" and "US" in the Ephesian verses refers to "The Saints"

Then, explained that where is says "GOD chose us (The Saints) before the foundataion of the earth.... Really means that when we chose GOD that our choice then put us on the path established by GOD for those who choose HIM.

Now, that is not what the verse says, it says "GOD chose US (The Saints) in CHRIST" It doesn't say, GOD chose us after we were in CHRIST, it says HE chose us in CHRIST.

SHiloh then went on to explain that where the word of GOD says HE predestined us to adoption, it really means that HE established a destiny for those who make the choice. The difference between having a destiny as a result of a choice and being predestined is night and day. Go to the greek or just open a dictionary, there is no way the word predestined is represented by what Shiloh has put forth as an explaination.

Shiloh made a statement that I was "intelectually illequipped" to understand.

I Agree.

Anybody with any intelect at all would be illequipped to understand.

Still, this is a valuable lesson in just how far some people will go to twist scripture to meet what they want to believe. This is why thre is such division and so many different churches preaching so many different doctrins.

[Guest shiloh357]

After some back and forth, Shiloh finally did agree that "WE" and "US" in the Ephesian verses refers to "The Saints"

I never contended otherwise.

Then, explained that where is says "GOD chose us (The Saints) before the foundataion of the earth.... Really means that when we chose GOD that our choice then put us on the path established by GOD for those who choose HIM.

Actually I never said any such thing and you can provide no copy and paste to substantiate that assertion. I did not say, that "we" or "us" did not refer to believers, but that you had not provided any evidence that "we" or "us" referred to the redeemed community as to being the only ones for whom Christ died. Basically what I was challenging was your position as it relates to both limited atonenment and unconditional election.

Now, that is not what the verse says, it says "GOD chose US (The Saints) in CHRIST" It doesn't say, GOD chose us after we were in CHRIST, it says HE chose us in CHRIST.

When it says "He chose us "in Him," it refers to the spiritual position of the Christian for whom God has made a choice.

What that verse does NOT say, is that God chose who would be in Him. It says that God has chosen that "we" (believers) would be holy and blameless. It is not referring to who will or will not be saved. Salvation is not the subject being addressed. Paul in Ephesians 1:3 that "we" have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ. Verses 4 and following tell us what those spiritual blessings to "us" are.

Verses 4 and 5 do not refer to who is selected for salvation, but that even before the foundation of the world, God had chosen and preordained that those who do believe on Christ would be holy and and blameless and that believers are predestined unto "adoption" (the redemption of our bodies at the end of the ages).

SHiloh then went on to explain that where the word of GOD says HE predestined us to adoption, it really means that HE established a destiny for those who make the choice. The difference between having a destiny as a result of a choice and being predestined is night and day. Go to the greek or just open a dictionary, there is no way the word predestined is represented by what Shiloh has put forth as an explaination.

Actually, I am working of Paul's definition of "adoption" in Romans chapter 8 where He ties "adoption" to the final glorification of the saints, when saints receive their immortal glorified body. Paul says in Ephesians 1:4 that are predstined unto Adoption. In Romans 8: 14-19, 23, Paul defines what adoption pertains to. Just working off of what the Bible says there is not need to run to Greek dictionaries.

Proper hermeneutics relies more on how words are used within given context and less on the dicitionary/lexical definition of a word. It is always comes down to the object that the author has in view, but for those with an agenda or doctrine to push the last thing they want is to restricted to things like context or the intent of the author. You have chosen to ignore both in your handling of this issue.

Shiloh made a statement that I was "intelectually illequipped" to understand.

No, that is not what I said. I said that you are continuously assigning values to my words and my position and refuse to correctly frame my position. You are intellectually illequipped to discern the difference an argument over grammar vs. an argument based on word usage and application. I have explained my position in clear terms, but you insist on making it an issue of not being able to understand English. I was not arguing over the meaning of "we" or "us," but over your flawed application of those terms.

Still, this is a valuable lesson in just how far some people will go to twist scripture to meet what they want to believe.

I don't have to twist anything. In fact, I don't have to work nearly as hard as you do. I operate of context pure and simple. I don't have run and talk to various people who I think will support my position. I can just open up the Bible and read it for myself and apply basic rules literary analysis.

This is why thre is such division and so many different churches preaching so many different doctrins.

Actually, that is an oversimplification of the reasons why denominations exist. Evdiently, you are not a student of history.

[larryt]

Shiloh, Even Paul draws the distinction clearly in Ephesians. In Ephesians 2:1 he brings the world into the discussion and then establishes that the "WE" and "US" of his letter are those who he sent the letter to (ie. "The Saints") He does the same thing in Romans when he states, "They have a zeal..." referring to someone else and then returns to the use of WE or US for those the letter is written to, of which he considers himself a part of.

You are missing the point. What you need to establish is that Paul used "we" or "us" in the sense of being chosen to the exclusion of those outside of the redeemed community. You are assigning a false value to Paul's usage of those terms. I understand that there are things about the redeemed community that are peculiar to us and us alone. I am not debating that at all. The problem is your assumption that Paul uses the term "us" or "we" to mean "those who were chosen to be saved." The Bible NEVER refers to salvation in such a exclusive sense.

Now, I garantee you that if you coppied the last 5 or 6 back and forths we have had, take them to any english professor, he would tell you that what I have explained to you is absolute truth.

What he would point out is that you are speaking past what I am trying to say.

You may find a way to still believe what you do in the light of that fact, but the fact remains, Paul is writing to the saved and everywhere he uses WE or US means the saved ONLY.

That is not issue I am debating. I am challenging the false notion that "us" and "we" refer to reemed community as a community chosen to be saved to the exlcusion of a group of sinners God has pre-ordained have no opportunity to be saved. Jesus never said that, and Paul never said that. That is a false value you and other men have assigned to the Scriptures.

Isn't it fun that we can not even agree on the meaning of a two letter word. Now I see why there are such divisions in the body of CHRIST.

Actually what is more fun is the fact I am not debating over the meaning of a word, but the application of it, and you are evidently intellectually illequipped to understand the difference between the two.

OK,

This s becoming a circle. EPH 1:4-5 HE chose US in HIM before the foundations of the world..Predestined us to adoption... (note that) predestine US to ADOPTION...

JESUS said all tht the FAther had given to HIM would come to HIM. That does indicate that the ones who do not come were not given to HIM to begin with. JESUS also said HIS sheep hear HIS voice and will not follow another. HE also stated that "You can not understand my words because you are not of my FATHER, you are of your father the devil. JESUS also said, "No-one has seen the FATher EXCEPT THE son AND WHOM THE son CHOOSES.

I am often fascinated by your arogance and pride. You are so convinced that you are above everyone and you have perfect understanding. The greatest theologians of Christianity have debated this issue for 400 years and yet you know for certain that those far more learned and educated than you are wrong.

You are the one who is wrong and teaching error. You clearly do not understand the rudimentary concepts of english yet you presume to tell me that I am talking past your point.

The point is, Paul in the first three chapter of Ephesians teaches in very concise language that salvation is a gift from GOD given to those who HE chose in JESUS before the foundations of the world. That is a fact. He teaches the same thing in Romans chapters 8-14. Unmistakeable, undeniable clear teaching of GOD's electing and choosing and even hardening the hearts of whom HE chooses. In both the letters to the corinthians he explains time and time again about their being called, chosen, elect.

You have tired me out. I can not begin to understand how a person who chooses to ignor the very clear teaching of over 100 passages of scripture to embrace a doctrin from a couple of unclear passages, will tell someone they are twisting scripture to fit something unbiblical. You simply amaze me.

I will take my "Intellectually ill equipped" self away from your superior brain and go talk to people who understand, or at least want to understand ENGLISH.

Hi Kross,

All that are(were) ordained to eternal life, believe(d). Those that aren't won't. And Jesus won't loose any that the Father gives to Him. Those that do not here or believe Him are not of His sheep, they are goats. His people will be willing in the day of His visitation. I am glad He chose/elected me and and gave me the grace to believe. And the we & us are the saints.

LT