If God's will is to save all His people

[Guest shiloh357]

If God decides to save some and leave others who are we to argue with God. The God who is not sovereign is not the God of the bible. It is an idol, made in the imagination of man.

Romans 9 is not talking about salvation.

Paul is saying that we cannot bring accusation of injustice to God simply because of how He uses people for His own glory and purposes.

Nothing that has been said here questions God's sovereignty. Sovereignty simply means that is in control. However, God allows a lot of things to occur that He hates. He allows men to choose murder, rape, incest, lying, gossipping, stealing, coveting, and so forth. Even though God is sovereign, He permits things that go against His perfect Will.

Givning a person the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel does not contradict God's sovereignty at all.

[larryt]

Paul said he preached the gospel against his will and by the will of GOD. We are entrusted with a stewardship. We preach and teach that they who are of GOD may be called out of the world by the presentation of the gospel. How will they call on one they have not heard of?

Which makes my point. If they are already saved and sealed from eternity past, then what difference does it make? According to your theology, they were already saved even before they were born and cannot be lost. If someone does not preach to them, would that impact God previous choice?

You continually put words in the mouth of those you oppose. Your erroneous understanding of election leads you to think that we believe that people are "saved even before they are born and cannot be lost." None of use have said that. This is nothing more that erecting a straw man and then knocking it down. God's people are CHOSEN/ELECTED UNTO salvation. All that are ordained to eternal life believe. Believe what? Believe the gospel. And how shall they hear unless the gospel is preached.

If you look at the verses where it discusses people responding to the gospel, you will see this pointed out.

In Acts, Corinthians, and Ephesians it states that people who are chosen believed when they heard the gospel. GOD has called HIS people by our preaching. HE does not need us, HE invites us to be a part of HIS work.

The problem is that the Bible presents the spreading of the gospel as something that must be done with urgency. If everyone who is saved is already chosen sealed and saved prior to their birth, and if those who are lost are already hopelessly doomed to hell with no opportunity to accept Christ, then logically, no amount of preaching or the lack of it will make any difference. It has already been decided.

Again this your erroneous understanding of election. I see no conflict between election and the urgency of preaching. You have the order reversed. Nobody is saved prior to their birth. It is not THOSE THAT ARE LOST, everyone is lost, but God chose to seek and save some of the lost. It is through the foolishness of preaching that God saves His people. It is the goodness of God that LEADETH to repentance.

Logically, there is no reason to pray for the unsaved neighbor, classmate or coworker if we follow your theology. Their eternal destiny is sealed one way or another, and no amount of intercessory prayer will make a difference. If they are not "chosen" for salvation, then it is pointless to pray. If they are one of the "chosen," then they are already saved and there is no reason to pray for them to have a salvation that they already possess.

Again this your erroneous understanding of election. All erroneous assumptions.

LT

[raleigh]

the problem is people are leaving out the first earth age. we are now in the second which is about 6,000yrs old. but the earth is millon of yrs old and so are we. we were here in our spritiaul bodys then. we were here with the dinosauers.satan was a good angel then (ezekiel 28:1-19). then he fell so YHVH ended that age and started this age(2nd)6,000 yrs ago which is man in the flesh to choose between YHVH and satan.so we are with in heaven with HIM before we are born or take our turn here in the flesh and when we die we go back. what happen here has everythingto do with what happen then in that time(1st age).romans9:10-18 jacob i loved -esau i hated before they were born in the flesh how? they already existed.jeremiah 1:4-5 YHVH told jeremiah HE knew him before he was ever born how? jeremiah was with him before he was born in the flesh.ephesians 1:3-14 we all were with him before the foundation of this world (2nd).john 3 :3 the word's" born again "is really "born from above" take your strongs concordance look up the word" again" in the greek as used in john 3:3 and it will say "above" .our soul are not created at the time of conception but is sent down to enter the womb for our turn here.but all of our soul were created at the same time in the 1 st earth age. check out pastor murray at shepherds chapel to learn more .in gensis 1:1 GOD created the earth but it does not say when in verse 2 the word "was" is not in the herbew the word there is and should have been rightly translated in the english "became".in isaiah 45:18-19 we learn the earth was not created in vain but was created to be inhabited.it became vain or void at satan down fall.

[kross]

While it sounds good, let me ask you this question;

Was it OK for GOD to choose a people for HIMSELF before JESUS came?

Why is it not acceptable now? If the old tesament is a foreshadow of what is to come, why is this not understood?

And, if GOD knows that no-one in this world will ever choose HIM, thus all would be condemned, is it wrong for HIM to step in and save some for HIS glory and HIS purposes?

The difference between God's choice of Israel to be his nation and your assertions about who God chooses, is that God's choice of Israel pertained to Israel being a light to the world, an evangelistic arm as it was to reach the world unto Himself. God's reason for choosing Israel has nothing to do with, and completely dissimilar to your ubiblical concept of predestination. God's choice of Israel pertains to service, not salvation. God chose that Israel would be an example, a showcase of God's faithfulness, and despite their failings and shortcomings (not unlike our own) Israel has been exactly that. It goes all the way back to God's choice of Jacob (Israel) over Esau). God elected Israel to be His nation in the earth and to be the vehicle through which The Hope of all the ages, Messiah Jesus, would come into the world.

God's choice of Israel was not a case of God choosing Israel at the expense of other nations, but so that they could be a blessing to the other nations. Again, it would be pointless for Israel or for Christians today to be a light to the world if who is or is not going to be saved was already decided in the indeterminate eternal past.

Furthermore, Israel is not a foreshadowing or type of the Church.

Christians are also chosen to be a light in the world. We are chosen to show the love and mercy of GOD while those who reject HIM will show HIS wrath and vengeance.

It is an amazing act of love for GOD to see that no-one on earth will choose HIM of their own free will and choose to save some because it pleased HIM to do so.

The notion that GOD wants to save everyone and that GOD is soveriegn is contradictory. If the HOLY SPIRIT is working to saved everyone, than that would happen. GOD knows all of HIS creation and HE would know exactly what it would take to save every last person. So why doesn't HE?

Why is it that HE does what is necessary to save some while doesn't do what is necessary to save others?

When you hear something that you believe is the truth, you do not choose to believe, you just believe. Why is it that some hear and believe and some hear and do not? Because GOD prepares one heart to recieve and does not prepare another.

Some seed falls on the rocks, some falls soil that is already prepared to recieve it. Who prepared the soil to recieve it?

Acts shows Peter preaching to a large group and that those who are prepared to believe what he says act on that belief. Those who are not prepared, do not. Who prepared them?

[kross]

If God decides to save some and leave others who are we to argue with God. The God who is not sovereign is not the God of the bible. It is an idol, made in the imagination of man.

Romans 9 is not talking about salvation.

Paul is saying that we cannot bring accusation of injustice to God simply because of how He uses people for His own glory and purposes.

Nothing that has been said here questions God's sovereignty. Sovereignty simply means that is in control. However, God allows a lot of things to occur that He hates. He allows men to choose murder, rape, incest, lying, gossipping, stealing, coveting, and so forth. Even though God is sovereign, He permits things that go against His perfect Will.

Givning a person the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel does not contradict God's sovereignty at all.

Giving a person the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel knowing that every person will reject it does not contradict GOD's sovereingty.

GOD choosing to save some of them despite their nature to reject HIM is an act of extreme contrition and mercy and love.

No man will choose GOD. So GOD must choose to save some.

[kross]

I don't mean to get in the middle of this debate,because I know what I believe and I couldn't even come near to stating my position as clear as Shilo does but here is my honest question on what I don't understand.

If the theology that God has already chosen some for salvation and the rest to damnation whats the point of the tribulation?

We know it's for God to prove who He is to the world and to destroy the enemy. Then we know He will judge those of the world for their sins, but why judge them? They had no choice for their life and rejection of Christ because they were already damned to the lake of fire from the foundation of the world? So after all hell on earth breaking loose during the tribulation, the lost are then sentenced to eternal torment, all over things they had no choice over?

We know God has many attributes, loving, just merciful, He can be an angry God, in the OT we see a vengful God, but unfair and cruel?

I don't mean to talk of end times here, theres another forum for that, I just need an honest answer.

Stacey,

Did you read the verses in post #52? Also, EPH 1:4-5.

Take the time to look at them in context. While we may not be able to understand the ways of GOD, we can see what HE has told us. We have the obligation to believe what the Bible says and bending our understanding to it instead of bending it to fit our understanding.

The tribulation is a two part event. One is the world's attack on GOD and the other is GOD's response. It is GOD's way of puting an end to this world.

Every person has a choice. Not one person will choose GOD. If GOD did not choose to save some, none would be saved. HE chooses to save them by puting in them a belief in JESUS when they hear the gospel. If HE did not put that in them, they would never believe.

All people choose hell.GOD just changes the nature of those HE saves.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 26 2008, 03:38 PM)

QUOTE

Paul said he preached the gospel against his will and by the will of GOD. We are entrusted with a stewardship. We preach and teach that they who are of GOD may be called out of the world by the presentation of the gospel. How will they call on one they have not heard of?

Which makes my point. If they are already saved and sealed from eternity past, then what difference does it make? According to your theology, they were already saved even before they were born and cannot be lost. If someone does not preach to them, would that impact God previous choice?

You continually put words in the mouth of those you oppose. Your erroneous understanding of election leads you to think that we believe that people are "saved even before they are born and cannot be lost." None of use have said that.

That is where your theology leads, though. Kross states that a person who is "chosen" is a person whose eternal destiny is fixed. Their salvation is a done deal prior to even the creation of the univesrse. If they are already chosen then they cannot be lost, hence they are already saved prior to being born. It is not a difficult leap in logic. Conversely, those who are not "chosen" for salvation are thus, by default "chosen" for damnation. Their eternal destiny is fixed as well. They cannot receive the gospel as it is taught in your camp that God will not call them or allow them such opportunity.

This is nothing more that erecting a straw man and then knocking it down. God's people are CHOSEN/ELECTED UNTO salvation. All that are ordained to eternal life believe. Believe what? Believe the gospel. And how shall they hear unless the gospel is preached.

Again, it doesn't matter. They are already chosen, signed, sealed and delievered. It's a done deal prior to the foundation of the earth, according to you.

Again this your erroneous understanding of election. I see no conflict between election and the urgency of preaching. You have the order reversed. Nobody is saved prior to their birth. It is not THOSE THAT ARE LOST, everyone is lost, but God chose to seek and save some of the lost. It is through the foolishness of preaching that God saves His people. It is the goodness of God that LEADETH to repentance.

No, I understand election quite well. What you are teaching is "unconditional election," not simply election. Biblical election pertains to service, not to who is or is not saved. Every context in which the word appears has nothing to do with who will obtain salvation, but what God has elected for Christians who have believed.

Once again, if God has chosen who will and will not be saved, and God according to you, cannot fail, then it leaves with the logical conclusion that preaching or not, no one who is "chosen" will be lost. Let me ask you this, what if one of the "chosen" dies before a preacher reaches their village out in some remote untouched region of Cambodia. If they die without hearing the Gospel will they go to heaven anyway?

[Guest shiloh357]

The notion that GOD wants to save everyone and that GOD is soveriegn is contradictory. If the HOLY SPIRIT is working to saved everyone, than that would happen. GOD knows all of HIS creation and HE would know exactly what it would take to save every last person. So why doesn't HE?

Giving man the ability to make a genuine decsion does not erode or minimize God

[Guest shiloh357]

GOD choosing to save some of them despite their nature to reject HIM is an act of extreme contrition and mercy and love.

Interesting. If you read through Calvin's Institutes, there is no mention of the love of God for the lost.

No man will choose GOD. So GOD must choose to save some.

And so why would God if motivated out of love and mercy, why choose to only save some? If God is all powerful and capable saving all mankind, what would be the advantage in choosing only a select few? How is purposely letting others go to hell a reflection of His love and mercy?

[Guest shiloh357]

Then answer these questions for me.

Did Christ come and die to effectually save men or just make salvation possible?

Jesus came to do both. Jesus said He came to seek and to save them that are lost. He also, made salvation universally available for anyone who would be willing to believe and accept His offering of salvation. It is God's perfect will that all men everywhere be saved. However, for those who choose continued separation from God, God will honor that decision and they will suffer the consequences of rejecting the offer of salvation.

It's one thing to say that salvation is offered to all, it's quite another to say that there are people suffering in hell because of double jeopardy.

I said nothing about any kind of "double jeopardy."

BTW, Jesus specifically said that He layed down His life for His sheep. His words, not mine.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

(John 10:11-16)

"The Sheep" as it applies to this passage pertains to Israel. Going all the way back up to verse 1, this is a conversation where Jesus is comparing Himself (The Good Shepherd) with the Pharisees (the hirelings, thieves and robbers). Jesus was contrasting His love for the sheep, the nation of Israel over and against those among the Pharisees and scribes who cared for nothing that was in the best interest of the people, the sheepfold of Israel.

Unlike Jesus who was willing to lay down His life for the nation of Israel the Pharisees like the parabolic hirelings did not care about the welling being of the sheep and ran away in the face of danger. The hireling has interest in the sheep insomuch they are profitable to him. The Good Shepherd is willing to place Himself between the flock and the danger, instead of caring only for how the sheep benefit Him, His concern is how He might be benefit to the sheep.

This is not a case for predestination and that is not even part of the line of thought. Jesus NEVER uses sheep in a exclusive term as if some are chosen to be his sheep and others are not.