Is Christmas really Christian?

[His_Will_Be_Done]

That is complete IDOLATRY and false worship.

No one said they worshiped the feather!

They just use it as a symbol.

Like Patrick used the clover.

Don't you have symbols to point you to Jesus and the sacrifice He made and the new life He gave you?

That isnt what scripture tells us to live by

2Corinthians

Edited November 29, 2008 by His_Will_Be_Done

[His_Will_Be_Done]

Thus, for the Native American who regards an eagle feather as a symbol of eternal life, the NA Christians use the eagle feather as an expression of praise to Jesus. And that's just scratching the surface.

That is complete IDOLATRY and false worship.

A thinking person knows the difference between a symbol and an idol. An idol is something you worship as a god. A symbol is just a reminder or an emblem of a spritual truth.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

Practising idolatry does not only pertain to worshipping and bowing down to false gods made of stones, wood, etc..

Colossians

[ColleenLovesMischief]

That is complete IDOLATRY and false worship.

No one said they worshiped the feather!

They just use it as a symbol.

Like Patrick used the clover.

Don't you have symbols to point you to Jesus and the sacrifice He made and the new life He gave you?

That isnt what scripture tells us to live by

2Corinthians

[Guest man]

Hummmm so you have no crosses in your home that remind you of what Christ did for you? Somehow I doubt you have nothing to remind you.

I'm not His_Will_Be_Done, but I have nothing, in the physical sense, to remind me of what Christ did for me. I don't need it.

[ColleenLovesMischief]

Hummmm so you have no crosses in your home that remind you of what Christ did for you? Somehow I doubt you have nothing to remind you.

I'm not His_Will_Be_Done, but I have nothing, in the physical sense, to remind me of what Christ did for me. I don't need it.

I know some don't, but most people have something lying around.

[other one]

I believe God in His infinite wisdom purposely did not give us the exact date of the birth of Jesus so we would not be side-tracked by worshipping a date and forgetting who we should be worshipping. Satan has been a master of perverting the truths of God and if Christians want to turn the tables by making a pagan holiday into one that HONORS the King I am not sure that is such a bad thing, so long as we remember its all about Jesus and not the holiday.

The reason for the holiday has become lost in all the commercialism. The WHEN of honoring Jesus isn't nearly as important as the actual doing which should be DAILY not just a specific time of the year.

Actually he did. Jesus was born on September 11, 3bc between the hours of 6:30 and 9:00pm

The world was transfixed by the year 2000--worried about the'Y2K' bug in computers,

millennial madness in cult groups, political union in Europe, and a proposal to make

Mary "co-redemptrix" in the Catholic Church. While Rome flirted with blasphemy, few

realized that the true 2000th lunar anniversary of the birth of Jesus was August 22, 1998,

or on September 11, 1998 by the solar calendar dating we now use.

Many may live to see the consequences of the anniversary, if it foreshadowed a coming

fake Christ. Or at the least, there were dozens of lunatics eager to take advantage of the

year 2000 hysteria to get the attention of the gullible.

Yet the 2000th anniversary of the Nativity actually came 475 days before year 2000

began. The correct anniversary date was about sundown, Jerusalem time, the end of the

Sabbath, Saturday August 22, 1998.

How can we know the exact day--and nearly the hour--of the birth of Jesus?

Simple arithmatic. A child could have done it, if only the basic assumptions had been

correct. But they weren't. In the 19th century, critical scholars made a crucial decision to

reject a total lunar eclipse in January 1 BC and to accept instead one in March 4 BC, as

the chronological cornerstone for dating the death of Herod the Great, and thereby, the

possible birth years for Jesus.

By so doing, the critics could argue Jesus had to born before 4 BC, contradicting

Luke, who tied Jesus' 30th year to the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, 27-28 AD. Luke

effectively placed the birth in 3 BC, as did many of the early church fathers. Ironically,

even the date used by the Pope during the Christmas Eve midnight mass ritual is itself

consistent with the last half of 3 BC.

The dirty little secret is that virtually all the available evidence has always pointed

at the harvest period of 3 BC as the focal point of the Nativity--including the possibility

of a late summer birth.

By rejecting Luke, scholars also threw out the date of the birth Luke gives in his

Gospel. In his second chapter, Luke tells what happened the day Mary came to the

Temple for purification 40 days after the birth of Jesus. All one has to know is what

day this was. And Luke plainly names the day. In fact, he includes three statements

identifying the day. So what day was this?

Yom Kippur. The Day of Atonement. The 10th day of the seventh month of the

Hebrew calendar.

In Luke's time, Yom Kippur was called three things: The day of the "Fast," the day

of the "Purification,"and the day of "Redemption." Luke uses all three to identify the

day Jesus was brought to the Temple. And he even quotes the Torah rule that mandates

the 40-day period for the mother to wait after the child's birth [Lk 2:22-38].

And if there were any doubt that it was Yom Kippur, Luke tells of a woman named

Anna who had been in the Temple for a "night and day" without leaving. There was

ONLY ONE DAY A YEAR when a person could pray overnight in the Temple: Yom

Kippur. All other days, the Temple was locked at sundown.

This shows the 40th day of Mary's Purification had begun at the end of Yom Kippur,

the end of the 10th day of the 7th month, because we know the Purification was done at

the earliest opportunity--at the beginning of the 40th day after birth. And since the 6th

month normally had only 29 days, simple arithmatic shows Mary's 39 days of Purification

had to have begun around sundown on the 1st day of the 6th month, called Elul.

This was the night of the first sighting of the new moon of Elul. The Magi in Babylon

were recording this sunset sliver of the new moon on a clay tablet. The cuneiform tablet

the Magi made at that hour 2000 years ago, along with thousands of others from Babylon,

resides in the British Museum. It is possible that this clay tablet was inscribed by one of

the famous Magi who later brought a strange set of gifts to Bethlehem. So the new moon

seen by the Magi in Babylon at the very moment of Jesus being born is recorded on one of

the tablets now in London. Cuneiform scholars have identified the date on this tablet as

equivalent to September, 11, 3 BC.

The Hebrew lunar calendar dates vary with respect to our solar calendar. So the 1st

of Elul was September 11th in 3 BC, but began on August 22 in 1998. The same was true

in the days of the early church, of course. In a given year, the 1st of Elul could have fallen

on September 8th, for example.

This may solve another ancient mystery. No one seems to know how Rome came to

honor September 8th as the birthday of Mary. There is no Biblical, historical, or church

tradition to explain it. It just emerges out of nowhere. Rome keeps the 8th of December as

the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary [ie. conceived without original sin]. It is

a holy day of obligation for all Catholics to attend Mass. This feast is clearly based upon

September 8th also, and mortal sin is attached to the failure of a Catholic to observe it, yet

the origins of these dates are unknown.

On the other hand, we can now see that if Jesus were born on September 11th as Luke

indicates, then Jesus would have been conceived around December 8th in 4 BC. The now

mysterious Mary dates fit Jesus quite well. How might this have happened?

In the late 4th century, in early 380 AD, Pope Damasus I was endeavoring to force all

Christians in the Roman Empire to yield to his authority. He got the Emperor to issue an

edict requiring them to practice the religion of Rome. We know that it is about this time

the Christmas midnight Mass was first celebrated and December 25th first identified as a

Catholic holy day. It is said Damasus was seeking to lure the people away from pagan

rites honoring the birth of the sun god at midnight by compelling Catholic attendance at a

memorial in honor of Christ's death, ie the Mass. The people confused this Mass with the

pagan solar birth rituals conducted at that same time. Gradually, the Christ-Mass became

associated with the Nativity.

Meanwhile, the true feast around September 8th, which naturally honored Mary in

giving birth to Jesus, was converted into a day commemorating her own birth, and an old

holyday honoring the conception of Jesus was converted into a day commemorating the

conception of Mary on December 8th. Strangely, there is still widespread belief among

non-Catholics that this is the day Jesus was concieved--a possible lingering remembrance

of the original meaning of this date.

We can also tell from Luke's Gospel that Jesus had been born in early evening, for

Luke says the shepherds were keeping watch by night, but still had time to go into town

and tell the people what they had seen earlier that evening. People rose early with the sun

in those days, and would have been asleep by 9 or 10 pm. Therefore, the birth had taken

place no later than 8 pm, and probably before 7 pm. Yet Luke says it happened at night,

which means after sunset--surely after 6 pm in September. Hence, it follows that Jesus

was born within a few minutes of 6:30-7:30 pm on the evening of September 11th, 3 BC.

A confirmation of this time is in the book of Revelation. Historian Ernest L. Martin

consulted NASA lunar-phase tables and found the image of the heavens in Revelation 12

showed where the sun and the moon were, relative to Virgo, at the time Jesus was born,

pin-pointing sunset of September 11th of 3 BC. It seems the moon moves so quickly it is

"beneath the feet" of Virgo only a few hours every month. Moreover, the moon comes

within two lunar diameters of Virgo's feet at the time of a new moon but once in 30 years.

The only such occurance any time near the birth of Jesus was on September 11th, 3 BC.

Most previous attempts at determining the birth time were based upon astrology and

dating the Star of Bethlehem. No one considered 3 BC because that year had erroneously

been assumed to follow Herod's death. However, Dr. Martin has proven that Herod did

not die in 4 BC, but in 1 BC. Scholars are now generally accepting the new chronology for

Herod, and this in turn has allowed the confirmation of the New Testament date for the

birth of Jesus. Unfortunately, many churches continue to promote the critics' errors and

paganized traditions about the Nativity.

[traveller]

Sam - source?

[~~ angelique ~~]

Wow. There is some interesting discussion in this thread. I've heard people trash Christmas as being pagan; however, as an ex-wiccan, let me say there are some huge differences between Yule and Christmas. The only one that needs to be mentioned is this: Jesus. If God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, why is celebrating the birth of Jesus so controversial?

Pagan traditions worship god(s). Christians worship the Living God.

There is a huge difference in the heart attitudes; therefore, they are not the same.

[Guest shiloh357]

Thus, for the Native American who regards an eagle feather as a symbol of eternal life, the NA Christians use the eagle feather as an expression of praise to Jesus. And that's just scratching the surface.

That is complete IDOLATRY and false worship.

A thinking person knows the difference between a symbol and an idol. An idol is something you worship as a god. A symbol is just a reminder or an emblem of a spritual truth.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

Practising idolatry does not only pertain to worshipping and bowing down to false gods made of stones, wood, etc..

Colossians

[nebula]

No one said they worshiped the feather!

They just use it as a symbol.

Like Patrick used the clover.

Don't you have symbols to point you to Jesus and the sacrifice He made and the new life He gave you?

That isnt what scripture tells us to live by

2Corinthians 5:7 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)"

Romans 8:24-25 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

I hope this clears things up.

No it doesn't.

Why do you suppose the Lord commanded the commandments to be written on the people's doorposts? (Deut. 6:9)

Practising idolatry does not only pertain to worshipping and bowing down to false gods made of stones, wood, etc..

Colossians 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:"

Ephesians 5:5 "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God"

Covetousness is a form of idolatry as stated in scripture.

Paying worship to men is idolatry

Putting anything before God is idolatry i.e. cars, money, furniture, etc.

I hope this was a blessing.

Covetousness? What does covetousness have to do with anything?

Is your Bible your possession?

Do you worship the Bible?

Do you worship the clothes you wear?

Do you worship your car?

Or your silverware?

Edited November 30, 2008 by nebula