THE Rapture or "a rapture" or tare removal or ...

[kross]

I confess that your post made no sense to me. What are you trying to put forth?

Or are you not putting forth an opinion at all and just writing things to think about?

I would move this to escatology for you but I do not know how.

There is no rapture. The tares are removed from the earth and burned up and then the NEW JERUSALEM descends from heaven and Christ reigns on earth.

Revelation 21

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I see. Those are good points.

Can you explain to me what the verses that state we will "meet HIM in the air" mean?

From what I read around the verses you quote, this takes place after the 1000 years of peace. Where are all the dead in CHRIST and the believers before the New Jerusalem comes down?

So are we going to leave in the pre-trib rapture or the mid-trib rapture or the post-trib rapture or maybe the mid-millenial rapture or the post-millenial rapture or the half time at Super Bowl LVXXXIII?

The whole conversation is a waste of constructive time. It distracts christians to go down rabbit trails that lead to a dead end after an entire lifetime of error. Far too many christians are basing their lives on a philosophy instead of a person. They are planning their future around a fairy tale theological scenario instead of dying daily and occupying the Kingdom. They are lazily selfish and leaving evangelism for others whom the "think" are left behind.

Land o Goshen!!

Dear Yod:

Somewhat agree" conversation is a a waste of constructive time", at least on a message board. UNLESS posters understand that we are in an indescribably vicious spiritual war and how to share, knowing that. "Invisible War"-Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse is a start. One ministry I have received much edification from over a number of years mentioned the term "Christianettes". That many churches have departed from teaching sound doctrine and solid teaching about The Second Coming. And prevent/obstruct Christians from receiving one of the Crowns promised - watchers Crown.

One can just give up re End Times prophecy due to MASSIVE CONFUSION/deception that Jesus Christ warned about . That The Holy Spirit warns about. That The Word of God instructs about. Re your other comments:all depends on what The Lord Jesus Christ has called one to do. Amongst other things I have been clearly instructed to NEVER judge hearts but judge facts and go on the attack spiritually against enemies defined by Ephesians 6:12 and elsewhere. BTW-in many ways the literal devil used to be my literal father:see John 8:44. From personal experience the devil has hate and power that is indescribable. Most of my experiences unshareable.

My Smith's 1884 [eighteen eighty four] Bible Dictionary has one statement under "Satan" that The Holy Spirit has focussed me on. Satan is trying to break the bonds between God and man and man and man. Bonds of truth and love. Using slander as a primary weapon. To me, just simply "Hate God and hate one another". Rather than agape one another. Rather than esteeming others better than oneself. Rather than being swift to hear,slow to speak, slow to wrath do just the opposite.

Indeed discussions re "The Rapture" etc. can and have been a great source of "yelling and screaming" amongst Christians, just adding to the divisions and schisms in Jesus Christ Church. From my experiences over on Beliefnet in the Multifaith Forum the whole topic of End Times. Can see much of the results of Satan/devil activity both past and present. Opposing Titus 2:13 amongst many other Scriptures. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 included. Jesus said "What I say unto you I say unto all:Watch."

War. Daniel 9:26. Revelation 12:17. We know how this ends:probably unbearable to really think about.

Agape and peace to you all {Hope and pray}. THE agape of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. The peace of God. THE/agape/peace of THE God. The only true God, THE Father.

Ron...

Dear Kross:

Reason I put this under Spritual Warfare-focus is on the MASSIVE DECEPTION I mentioned. Believe one has to be in a Hebrews 5 state in addition to the whole armour of God to share, especially on a message board. Even face to face requires, to me, THE Holy Spirit 100%unquenched [control,filling,power,leading]. Deadly serious topic here. I also have been given experiential knowledge of 1 John 4:1-6 {e.g. have had 1 and 2 way conversations with both 1John 4:2 and 1 John 4:3 spirits}.

Peace.

Ron...

I am clearly toooooo ignorant to understand what you are trying to say or what you are saying. Do you have the ability to speek in a way that I may understand? Like could you explain what this MASSIVE DECEPTION is and how it is manifest? 'Cause I still do not understand a word of, or the reason for, the post. What is your point?

Just real simple short sentence that says something straight forward? Sum up what it is? I am not one of those who needs you to give me scripture or explaination, I have a handle on what the Bible says. I just really do not know what you are saying.

Thanks.

[John Bernall]

Shalom,

the "rapture" is going to happen, no doubt about that. "when" becomes the main theme of debate. many seem to think of the "rapture" in terms of the tribulation and its time line. but this is not the main "signpost" of its occurance. the resurrection itself is that signpost, as Paul himself states: "the dead in Messiah rise first...etc" plain and simple enough, "then we who are alive and remaining...etc". the dead rising is resurrection. so when does this occur? though the actual date and time are not specifically given, the order of events are:

But immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall down from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [cp. Isaiah 34:4; Joel 2:10; 2:31] And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in the heavens; and then all the tribes of the earth will beat their breasts, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of the heavens, with power and great glory! [Dan 7:13] ~Mattai 24:30

And I saw the heavens having been opened. And look! A white horse, and the One sitting on it is being called Faithful and True, and He judges and wages war in righteousness. Now His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems having names having been written on them, and a name having been written which no one knows, except Himself, and having been clothed with a robe having been covered with blood, and His name is called, The Word of Elohim. And the armies, the ones in heaven (the angels?), were following Him on white horses, having clothed themselves with fine linen, bright and clean. And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp, double-edged sword, so that with it He should strike down the nations. And He will shepherd them with an iron staff. And He Himself treads the winepress of the wine of the rage of the wrath of Elohim, the Almighty. And He has on the robe and on His thigh a name having been written, "King of kings and Lord of lords." ~Revelation 19:11-16

And He will send forth His angels with the sound of a loud shofar (horn) blast, and they will gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from the farthest limits of the heavens to the other farthest limits of them. [Exod 19:16; Deut 30:4] ~Mattai 24:31

Mar'kos puts it this way: And then He will send out His angels, and He will gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from the farthest limits of the earth to the farthest limits of the heavens. ~Mar'kos 13:27

For this we say to you by the word of Adonai, that we, the ones living, the ones being left until the Arrival of Adonai, by no means shall precede the ones having fallen asleep. Because Adonai Himself with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the shofar (horn) of Elohim, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Mashi'ach will be risen up first, then we, the ones living, the ones being left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting of Adonai in the air, and in this manner (ressurected & changed) we will always be with Adonai! ~1 Tas'lonikim 4:15-17

Listen! I tell you a secret: We indeed will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in a blinking of an eye, at the last shofar (horn), for it will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we also will be changed! For it is necessary for this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. Now when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will happen the word, the one having been written, "Death was swallowed up into victory." [isaiah 25:8] ~1 Korin'tiyim 15:51-54

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the testimony of Yeshua and because of the word of Elohim, and who did not prostrate themselves in worship before the beast nor his image and did not receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Mashi'ach for the thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years are completed. This is the first resurrection. ~Revelation 20:4,5

many are fearful of this outcome, fearing tribulation.

Land o Goshen?

we are not appointed to wrath is a fair verse to point out in this instance. look to the children of Yis'rael while in Mitz'rayim (Egypt) during the rage of the wrath of Adonai then. they were still there, in Mitz'rayim (Egypt), in Goshen גשן . but they were not affected by the plagues that fell upon Mitz'rayim (Egypt). Goshen גשן is an interesting word which seems to have no definition in Strong's, though Brown Diver Briggs seems to define it as "Drawing Near". However, Goshen make me think of the word Geyshan גישן, from a root Gush גוש; or Gish גישׁ, meaning, variously, lump of earth, earthy, earthiness and earthbound.

much love and blessing in Yeshua,

John

Edited December 9, 2008 by Yochanan5730

[kross]

Thank you for the IM. I think I understood what you are saying.