Adopted then lost?

[kross]

This is not a thread to continue the debate over who chose who. There are enough verses posted below to convince me of the answer to that question, so to me there is no debate over these quotes from the Bible.

My post on adopted children has morphed into a discussion of what a person chosen by GOD can do to loose their position in the family. So, I bring that question to you. Give me your best scriptures on "Sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT" and "For one to have tasted and turned away there is no way to turn back again". (with your best understanding of the scriptures)

I am in the camp of those who believe GOD will never cast a child off and that our salvation is unconditional.

Some quotes from JESUS;

Matthew 11:27(b)

[Guest zabby]

and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:19)

[kat8585]

I am in the camp of those who believe GOD will never cast a child off and that our salvation is unconditional.

But the child can choose to leave God.

[Guest]

HIS Love

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying,

Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3

HIS Birth

For unto us a child is born,

unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:

and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God,

The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

HIS Blood

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;

by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 1:20

HIS Assurance

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty,

dominion and power, both now and ever.

Amen. Jude 1:24-25

HIS Name

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;

and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face;

and his name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:3-4

Forever And Ever HIS

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16

Hallelujah!

[Dave123]

Hi Kross

One cannot lose what he never had to begin with. One of the evidences of the genuineness of our our faith is perseverence in that same faith. In short, if you walk away, you never had it to begin with. We are upheld by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5). There's just too much scripture to list.

While some people look at Revelation 3:5 as a great threat, it's actually a great promise.

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Who is he who overcomes?

1 John 5:5 says, "Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

True born again Christians always overcome. And God promises "I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life"

Those who didn't overcome...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Peace

Edited December 11, 2008 by Dave123

[Rick-Parker]

Hi Kross

One cannot lose what he never had to begin with. One of the evidences of the genuineness of our our faith is perseverence in that same faith. In short, if you walk away, you never had it to begin with. We are upheld by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5). There's just too much scripture to list.

While some people look at Revelation 3:5 as a great threat, it's actually a great promise.

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Who is he who overcomes?

1 John 5:5 says, "Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

True born again Christians always overcome. And God promises "I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life"

Those who didn't overcome...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Peace

Amen!

[EricH]

I am in the camp of those who believe GOD will never cast a child off and that our salvation is unconditional.

But the child can choose to leave God.

Then I am assuming you believe that once a child makes that choice he can never come back

[Dave123]

Thanks guys

I wanted to add to my last post that this does not mean that we never have struggles in our faith. These struggles, if you will, work hand in hand with our growth in faith.

The crux of the whole issue between those who believe that one can lose, or give back their salvation. and those who believe in the eternal security of the believer can be summed up in this way...in the end, we both end up with an unbeliever. It's the theological route that one chooses to get to that point and it's implications that we should be careful to examine in light of the the complete scriptures. One side believes that this person gave back their salvation, or lost it, while the other side believes that that same person has given evidence that his faith was not genuine, therefore he was never saved to begin with. I believe that the latter holds up very well under the scrutiny of the complete scriptures, while the former gets crushed right out of the gates.

The warnings in scripture are of self deception, not of losing what God upholds, our salvation. If any of us were self deceived, we would want to know. That's why we weigh the genuineness of our profession of faith against the fruit of the same. God already knows. Hence, James 2. Here's more if you are interested. It touches on some of these things.

http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Diffe...0&start=140

Just a hunch, but I feel compelled to post this for someone.

It is ever the Holy Spirit's work to turn our eyes away from self to Jesus; but Satan's work is just the opposite of this, for he is constantly trying to make us regard ourselves instead of Christ. He insinuates, "Your sins are too great for pardon; you have no faith; you do not repent enough; you will never be able to continue to the end; you have not the joy of his children; you have such a wavering hold of Jesus." All these are thoughts about self, and we shall never find comfort or assurance by looking within. But the Holy Spirit turns our eyes entirely away from self: he tells us we are nothing, but that "Christ is All in All." Remember, therefore, it is not your hold of Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not your joy in Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, thought that be the instrument--it is Christ's blood and merits; therefore, look not so much to your hand with which you art grasping Christ, as to Christ; look not to your hope, but to Jesus, the source of your hope; look not to your faith, but to Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith. We shall never find happiness by looking at our prayers, our doings, or our feelings; it is what Jesus is, not what we are, that gives rest to the soul. If we would at once overcome Satan and have peace with God, it must be by "looking unto Jesus." Keep your eye simply on him; let his death, his sufferings, his merits, his glories, his intercession, be fresh upon your mind; when you wake in the morning look to him; when you lie down at night look to him. Do not let your hopes and fears come between you and Jesus; follow hard after him, and he will never fail you."--C.H. Spurgeon

--In Christ Jesus

Edited December 12, 2008 by Dave123

[jmwhalen]

Eternal Security

(Sealing, adoption, circumcision)

By John M. Whalen

Those who deny the eternal security of the believer fail to understand the cross work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and it's finality. In fact, this is why the question arises, "Is once saved always saved" a true statement?

I realize that this topic deserves more than just a few "random" verses thrown out in support of the doctrine of eternal security, but I will just focus on a few points:

1. 2 Cor 5:17-19 : "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

When Christ died two thousand years ago all our sin was still in the future. He paid for all sin, for all men, for all time. God is not imputing (charging to one's account) sin to anyone today. We are not saved by getting rid of our sin but by belief of the truth of the gospel which is "Christ died FOR our sins, was buried and rose again the third day"=the gospel of Christ- 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

2. The seal and pledge of the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption in Christ by God.

In simple terms, a symbol is something that represents something else. Two of the symbols of the Holy Spirit are as a seal, and as a pledge.

As a Seal:

" Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring: for the writing which is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, MAY NO MAN REVERSE (emphasis mine)." Esther 8:8

"And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might NOT BE CHANGED(emphasis mine) concerning Daniel." Daniel 6:17

"So she wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed them with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nobles that were in his city, dwelling with Naboth." 1 Kings 21:8

Most frequently, a seal was a signet ring with a design or imprint on it peculiar to the owner and to authenticate official documents. Thus, a signet ring is a finger ring that bears an engraved seal(Genesis 41:42) For example, when the king's ring was pressed against the hot wax that sealed a document, the sealed scroll then bore an imprint that IDENTIFIED it with the king. This would be similar in our times to our signature on a check. No document was valid without it. It was used in the following ways:

-It indicated a FINISHED transaction": In Jeremiah 32:9-11, the prophet Jeremiah purchases the field Hanameel with money as the LORD God had instructed him to do. After the price was set,, paid for, and the deed was signed, he sealed the deed. The seal was "evidence"(Jer. 32:10,11,12,14) that the purchase was official and complete-it was a FINISHED transaction(see also John 17:4 and 19:30).

This is what Paul is telling us in 2 Cor. 1:22-God the Father and God the Son settled the matter of our salvation between themselves-we partake of the FINISHED work. God, at this point, gives us the Holy Spirit, showing us that salvation is a completed, finished transaction.

-It obtains security: Notice in Esther 8:8, "...May no man reverse....", and Daniel 6:17, "...not be changed....". While the king was in power and lived, no one could change what was sealed by his own ring. Seals were the universal means of safeguarding, "securing" letters, treasures, "guaranteeing" legal evidence. This carried the authority of the king . In Daniel 6:15,17 the strict etiquette of the Persian court obliged the king never to revoke an order once given-the lion's den was sealed. In Matthew 27:66, the Lord Jesus Christ's tomb was sealed so that His body would be undisturbed-"...and made the sepulchre SURE, SEALING(emphasis mine) the stone". The context here shows that this was an official sealing that was intended to be so arranged that the seal could not be broken without detection. In the Revelation 7:2-4, one hundred and forty four thousand servants are sealed so they will be protected, secured from the impending judgment. In the Revelation 20:3, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years-his tenure here is made CERTAIN by the sealing of the pit. In all these cases, the seal is affixed in order to make sure, guarantee, someone or something is SECURE. Paul again uses this figure of the seal to the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:13, "...ye WERE(emphasis mine-past tense) sealed with that Holy Spirit of PROMISE(emphasis mine-guarantee of security)", and again in Ephesians 4:30, "...ye are sealed UNTO(emphasis mine-notice this is secure until we receive our redeemed bodies!) the day of redemption." The same principle applies to the King of Kings. God has sealed believers of today into the Body of Christ and now nothing can reverse that sealing. It is a secure seal-absolute security.

-It indicates ownership: Again in Jeremiah 32:11, 12 explains of evidence of a completed purchase being taken to Baruch. In verse 13, 14, 15 Jeremiah tells Baruch to take the evidences of the purchase and put then in an earthen vessel- Jeremiah has the right to do this because he has OWNERSHIP of the land. In Haggai 2:23, "In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have CHOSE(emphasis mine) thee, saith the LORD of hosts." And hence, "For ye are bought with a price...."(1 Cor. 6:20)

-It is used to identify something: In 2 Timothy 2:19 , the Holy Spirit through Paul says "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that ARE HIS(emphasis mine)." God has ownership of a believer. The Holy Spirit has sealed the purchase. Thus, just as the king's imprint IDENTIFIED it with the king, the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit IDENTIFIES us as the bought property, by blood, of the Lord Jesus Christ.

As a Pledge:

In 2 Cor. 5:5 we are told that God has given us "...the earnest of the Spirit.", and in Ephesians 1:14 we are told that the Holy Spirit "...is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possess...." The word "earnest" means "pledge", that is, first installment, deposit, or "down payment". This is a price laid down in advance to secure legal claim to an article. The purchaser was under legal obligation to make further payments until the purchase was complete. Thus, the LORD God is telling us that the presence of the Holy Spirit as a pledge is a symbol of telling us 1. "I claim you-you are my property"-again, 1 Cor. 6:19-20 builds on this theme, and 2. "I obligate myself-I guarantee to complete My work in every believer".

The Holy Spirit's presence guarantees our inheritance per Eph. 1:14. Our inheritance encompasses all that the Lord Jesus Christ(including His righteousness) is and all that the Lord Jesus Christ has- "And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ...."(Romans 8:17). This is fully guaranteed by God the Father, and the "warranty" is the Holy Spirit Himself.

Per Ephesians 1:13, the sealing of the Holy Spirit takes place as a result of a person believing the gospel of salvation. Notice in this verse is that upon believing the gospel we are "sealed" into our salvation. This sealing takes place by the Holy Spirit, which is the third member of the Godhead. God promises us that upon our belief in the gospel, He will seal us into the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit takes us and "places", or IDENTIFIES us into one body- the Body of Christ. This is called the baptism BY the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 states "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Please notice here that we are not baptized into the Holy Spirit(as at Pentecost where the Lord Jesus Christ is the baptizer), but rather the Holy Spirit is baptizing us into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13, 27). Ephesians 4:4 says, "There is one body" which is the Body of Christ, and which we are placed into, IDENTIFIED into, by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:5 states that there is "one baptism", and the baptism BY the Holy Spirit is this one baptism, which is our seal of salvation. Also notice that this is not a water baptism-it is a spiritual baptism(IDENTIFICATION) since it is performed by the Holy Spirit. The word "baptized" is often assumed to always be associated with water. However, we can conclude that this is not a water baptism- it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that seals our salvation. If we are to believe that the baptism referred to in I Corinthians 12:13 is with water, then we must also believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation. However, we know that NO physical works are required for salvation by reading Ephesians 2:8, and 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Thus, it is the baptism by the Holy Spirit that seals our salvation. We know this because it is through our baptism into the Body of Christ that we receive IDENTIFICATION with Christ

[kross]

I am in the camp of those who believe GOD will never cast a child off and that our salvation is unconditional.

But the child can choose to leave God.

true kat,

i chose to turn away from Him and He allowed me to do so

but oh the joy when i turned and ran right back into His waiting and loving arms!

lv yr sis in Christ

manie

Actually Manie, you prove the point that I have always made. HE may let you stray, HE will in no way cast you out and HE will bring you back.