IS GOD's will done

[Guest shiloh357]

I think an important question would be this...

Why would God go the trouble of revealing what His will is, and then cause people to do things that are outside of His will?

If God says murder, rape, etc. are sins and thus are against His Will, why would God then "okay" with or even cause to happen anything outside of His Will? How is that a scriptural demonstration of God's sovereignty? How can it be God's will for men to do things that contradict His Will?

Kross and larryt are both presenting a self-defeating argument. They are essentially arguing that God coerces or even approves of things being done that He has revealed are against His Will in the Scriptures. It is an example of extremely sloppy theology.

The question is;

Is GOD revealing HIS will or HIS nature?

The answer is that God is revealing neither. It not in the nature of God sin, to condone sin, or to approve of it. Sin is the opposite of God's Will. Like I said, you present a self-defeating argument.

You are saying God, who Has revealed His perfect Will, will cause men to do what is outside of His Will in order to accomplish His Will.

Your OP asks is God's will done. You claim it is always done even if God has to cause man to do what is not In His Will. If God causes man to sin, then God's Will is NOT done on earth as it is in Heaven and you blaming God directly and attributing sin to God as well.

No rational person will accept that kind of argument.

Look People

It is not God's will that we sin, it is man's will that he sin. So again we have a choice. Were not for Jesus we would all be condemned. You guy's talk in circles the fact is what do you choose death or life. God is neither in the middle nor the outside we are! Good thing God has a since of humor not saying the rape was funny but look at us! He is Holy, His Love cannot be explained because he even loves them outside his will and even the rapist where most of us can't!

Face the Facts he is God and can't be explained fully, take all of this in Faith and be Glad your saved!

God can't be explained fully, but there are some things about God that can be known and there is enough light available to us for us to see that God does not participate in sin nor does he cause it to happen to forward His plan. Sorry, but I am not going to recieve what you have said. Too much is at stake accept your statement.

[kross]

please do not put your words into my mouth kross thank you. you are arguing against scripture

Jesus said

Matthew 23:37:O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

You are making the points that I have made all along, if they would have come. But they would not come.

What words did I put in your mouth?

You stated that it was GOD's intent to create a world where there would be no sin, and that this world is not what HE intended. Those are your words.

Or did I misunderstand?

I come here to speak of things of GOD. I realize that you will not listen and that I am beating the air just as you realize I will not listen. I posted 24 scriptures about GOD choosing who HE saves. We can toss scipture at each other all month.

I prefer to toss ideas. Each interpretation has an understanding that must lead to a conclusion. If that conclusion is in error, than the understanding is in error.

If GOD wanted this world, and satan to be something different than it is, than does that not indicate HE failed to create what HE set out to create?

[kross]

I think an important question would be this...

Why would God go the trouble of revealing what His will is, and then cause people to do things that are outside of His will?

If God says murder, rape, etc. are sins and thus are against His Will, why would God then "okay" with or even cause to happen anything outside of His Will? How is that a scriptural demonstration of God's sovereignty? How can it be God's will for men to do things that contradict His Will?

Kross and larryt are both presenting a self-defeating argument. They are essentially arguing that God coerces or even approves of things being done that He has revealed are against His Will in the Scriptures. It is an example of extremely sloppy theology.

The question is;

Is GOD revealing HIS will or HIS nature?

The answer is that God is revealing neither. It not in the nature of God sin, to condone sin, or to approve of it. Sin is the opposite of God's Will. Like I said, you present a self-defeating argument.

You are saying God, who Has revealed His perfect Will, will cause men to do what is outside of His Will in order to accomplish His Will.

Your OP asks is God's will done. You claim it is always done even if God has to cause man to do what is not In His Will. If God causes man to sin, then God's Will is NOT done on earth as it is in Heaven and you blaming God directly and attributing sin to God as well.

No rational person will accept that kind of argument.

There is where you are adding to what I have stated. GOD does not cause people to sin. All GOD has to do is not intervene and the very nature of Satan and man will result in the sin taking place.

All I have stated is that sin is a part of GOD's plan for this world. If it were not, then JESUS would not have been the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If GOD set out to create something that this world is not, than HE failed to create what HE wanted. I can not believe in GOD failing.

It is continually stated that the infinite power of man's freewill destroyed what GOD wanted the world to be. Man is not that powerful.

I apreciate that you all do not agree. That is fine. I can not believe that GOD set out to create something and failed to do it.

The approach I am hearing is like a kid with a chemistry set. HE tossed all the ingredients in that would result in what is here, but HE did not know what that would be.

[kross]

Ezekiel 18

1The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

2What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

3As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

7And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

8He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

10If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,

11And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,

12Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,

13Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

14Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

15That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

16Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

17That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

18As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Since we know that no one keeps all HIS statutes or is saved by works of law, and since we know that all have sinned and fallen short, and since we know that this was written to a people GOD chose, prior to the coming of the HOLY SPIRIT and the choosing of individuals, what is your point?

No one is saved by works of the law, if they could be CHRIST died for nothing. All souls are HIS is an interesting statement in there. Thos that sin and those that do not sin are all HIS.

[kross]

No, not everything is in Gods will. Take the fall of man ...

Genesis 2:9-11

Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him,

[kross]

I have always prayed the LORD's prayer like this;

My FATHER who art in heaven

Holy is THY name

YOUR kingdom has come

YOUR will is done

On earth as it is in heaven

YOU give us each day our daily bread

YOU forgive our trespasses

As we forgive those who tresspass against us

YOU lead us not into temptation

But deliver us from evil

For YOURS is the Kingdom, and the power and the glory

Forever and ever, AMEN

Because I know that is the truth. JESUS prayed this prayer, so I know it was answerred. We are instructed to pray in accordance with HIS will. And scripture tells us that the kingdom of GOD is at hand and that HE dwells within us.

Do not get me wrong, you are welcome to believe what you want about GOD. I can not believe GOD is not doing HIS will on earth. That would sort of negate the title of GOD and make HIM just creator.

You are all welcome to believe whatever it is you believe. I have clearly stated what I believe. It is OK with me if you do not agree.

[Dave123]

please do not put your words into my mouth kross thank you. you are arguing against scripture

Jesus said

Matthew 23:37:O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And...

[Guest shiloh357]

There is where you are adding to what I have stated. GOD does not cause people to sin.

That is exactly what you said, that is exactly what everyone else has understood you to say. You even said that God could be "okay" with a little girl getting raped and murdered. You stated that NOTHING happens outside of God's Will and you did not qualify that statement.

And Yes, you DID Say God caused people to sin Please note your earlier response in this thread:

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 29 2008, 09:31 PM)

QUOTE (kross @ Dec 29 2008, 08:21 PM)

Why do you think GOD created Satan?

Surely GOD knew Satan's nature and what HE would do and be.

So, is Satan operating in GOD's will?

You think the rape and murder of a little girl is worse than any other sin GOD allows?

And YES, the fall of this world and the continued decay until it comes to an end is GODs will and it is exactly what HE said was the plan.

I am not talking about what God allows. I am talking about your OP. Your OP is about God Will be done. Is the girl who was raped and killed just the other day in this town an example of the Will of God being DONE? Did God want her raped and murdered? Stop trying to skirt around the question with answers about what God "allows." I am talking the actual Will of God being done.

Kross' Answer>>> "I believe everything that happens in this world is GOD's will. How is that skirting. The answer is yes."

The above is taken from Post #33 of this thread. Nothing happens outside of God's Will according to Kross, and this includes the rape of a little 14 year old girl last week, in my hometown. A very wicked position to hold.

All I have stated is that sin is a part of GOD's plan for this world.

You have gone much further than that, and the Bible NEVER says that sin is a part of God's plan. That is something you are adding to word of God.

If it were not, then JESUS would not have been the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Sorry but you have got it backwards.

If GOD set out to create something that this world is not, than HE failed to create what HE wanted. I can not believe in GOD failing.

So you are saying that God created and intended for the world to be sinful, and He designed it so that man would fall and what We see today is the product of that design? And yet you claim that God does not cause man to sin? Are you drinking?

It is continually stated that the infinite power of man's freewill destroyed what GOD wanted the world to be. Man is not that powerful.

I have never heard anyone say that.

That is fine. I can not believe that GOD set out to create something and failed to do it.

The problem here is that no one claimed God failed. Your argument is really an assault on God's character.

God knew man would fail. He knew man would sin and He had plan in place even before creation to redeem man back. God created a world perfect in the full knowledge that man would rebel. That is not a failure on God's part. The failure is on our part. We are the ones who disobeyed. God did orchestrate the fall of man just so He could send Jesus. That is both laughable and unbiblical. Fortunately, the rest of us dont get our theology from a box of Cracker Jacks. We prefer the Scriptures .

The approach I am hearing is like a kid with a chemistry set. HE tossed all the ingredients in that would result in what is here, but HE did not know what that would be.

No, that is you again, trying assign your values to our position in order to have something to debate against. An honest approach is just not something you are capable of.

[RebekahDavid]

"You stated that it was GOD's intent to create a world where there would be no sin, and that this world is not what HE intended. Those are your words." kross

you have my posts mixed up with someone elses. check my posts and your facts. thank you.

[Dave123]

It's important to seperate 'God's will' as in the basis of His justice, and God's will, as in His eternal decree. God's will of decree is always done, without exception, period. Just because God's demands that we not sin, does not constitute that we have a free will not to do so. God asked Moses what it was in His hand. Should we also conclude that God didn't know Moses was holding a staff?