Divine Sovereignty and Human Will

[Dave123]

Divine sovereignty and human will, Compatible or Incompatible?

God's sovereignty is not affected, no matter how free or how enslaved one might be. So to pit God's sovereignty against mans freedom in reality doesn't solve anything. One does not cancel the other out. Freedom cancels out enslavement, and vise versa. God sovereignty is unaffected through all of this.

"The incompadibilist seeks to find some room for the sovereignty of God within the assumption of libertarian freedom. But incompatibilism fails badly as a way of understanding the relationship between divine sovereignty and human freedom. First, it assumes a libertarian view of freedom. Human beings always possess the power of contrary choice. Second, incompatibilism insists that such a notion of freedom is the necessary condition for moral accountability: I cannot be held responsible if I could not choose to do otherwise. Third, in this view the sovereignty of God is necessarily limited by human freedom. If God has ordained that I perform some act, I could not choose otherwise and thus I am not truly free. While this collection of assumptions constitutes a coherent whole, each is no more than an assumption. And while they are all taken as having self-evident power within Arminian theological circles, we can find no evidence that scripture teaches or assumes any of them.---

---Scripture seems to deny the very sort of independence that the libertarian freedom demands. Human beings are never independent of God. Whereas incompatibilism holds that libertarian freedom--independence from all causes and forces external to the will--is the prerequisite for responsibility, the Bible seams to assume the opposite: responsibility is the necessary condition for freedom. The gift of responsible choice has meaning and significance not because of any connection to libertarian freedom but because it is an essential aspect of our imaging God. Freedom in scripture is not independence from God and His will but dependence upon God and our faithful participation in His Kingdom.

True freedom, freedom in the Biblical sense, is the liberty to obey God without restraint, without sin standing in the way.---

---Scripture teaches that the sinner is a slave to sin. A slave is not free but bound. Any discussion of freedom within a Christian or Biblical context must do justice to this fundamental Biblical principle: sin reigns over the unregenerate heart. The sinner is not free to please or love God. Biblical freedom, the ability to do that which is pleasing to God ( John 8:34-36; cf. Romans 6:15-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17 ), Freedom from sin, is given to us by the redemptive work of Christ.---

---Jesus said: "The good man brings forth good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored in his heart. For out of the outflow of his heart his mouth speaks" ( Luke 6:45; cf. Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 12:33-35 ). A person chooses and acts according to his character. The will is not independent of the person and nature who chooses. We do what we want to do ( Deuteronomy 30:19; Matthew 17:12 Jas 1:14), even though our characters, which are themselves determined by a myriad of forces external to us and outside of our control, determine what we want to do. Personal character is not nearly as spontaneous as those who see the will as a power of contrary choice like to suggest.--- (Taken from the book "why I am not an arminian")

So you ask, how can God be completely Sovereign and man be held completely responsible? Here are two very clear biblical examples.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

What is the compatiblist definition of Man's freedom?

"The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

Many people probably acknowledge compatibilism without even realizing it. Before you eat dinner, do you give thanks for it? Why? It was you who worked for the money, bought the food cooked the meal, right? Does that make you a robot?

Here is more examples of compatibilism with the regenerate heart recorded in scripture. The Bible tells us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:13-13, but does this make it any less through, by and from God?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude shows the same...

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;

23 But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

The point is, that the context of our recent discussions on the topic of God's sovereignty in this forum have missed the mark right from the starting gates. I'll add more later if needed. I just wanted to lay some ground work out for a propper, Biblical discussion.

Dave

[kross]

Hummm.

I have a tendancy to just speak the facts. Cram some meat down their throats and they get some in and they spit some out.

I do know that your approach will smoothly fed the meat by grinding it down to smaller portions.

There are those who will reject it no matter how it is served. There are also those who will fight against it just because they doo not want to believe what the scriptures say, or they think they have a more perfect understanding than others.

It is a good post, and I thank you for it.

[Massorite]

Divine sovereignty and human will, Compatible or Incompatible?

God's sovereignty is not affected, no matter how free or how enslaved one might be. So to pit God's sovereignty against mans freedom in reality doesn't solve anything. One does not cancel the other out. Freedom cancels out enslavement, and vise versa. God sovereignty is unaffected through all of this.

"The incompadibilist seeks to find some room for the sovereignty of God within the assumption of libertarian freedom. But incompatibilism fails badly as a way of understanding the relationship between divine sovereignty and human freedom. First, it assumes a libertarian view of freedom. Human beings always possess the power of contrary choice. Second, incompatibilism insists that such a notion of freedom is the necessary condition for moral accountability: I cannot be held responsible if I could not choose to do otherwise. Third, in this view the sovereignty of God is necessarily limited by human freedom. If God has ordained that I perform some act, I could not choose otherwise and thus I am not truly free. While this collection of assumptions constitutes a coherent whole, each is no more than an assumption. And while they are all taken as having self-evident power within Arminian theological circles, we can find no evidence that scripture teaches or assumes any of them.---

---Scripture seems to deny the very sort of independence that the libertarian freedom demands. Human beings are never independent of God. Whereas incompatibilism holds that libertarian freedom--independence from all causes and forces external to the will--is the prerequisite for responsibility, the Bible seams to assume the opposite: responsibility is the necessary condition for freedom. The gift of responsible choice has meaning and significance not because of any connection to libertarian freedom but because it is an essential aspect of our imaging God. Freedom in scripture is not independence from God and His will but dependence upon God and our faithful participation in His Kingdom.

True freedom, freedom in the Biblical sense, is the liberty to obey God without restraint, without sin standing in the way.---

---Scripture teaches that the sinner is a slave to sin. A slave is not free but bound. Any discussion of freedom within a Christian or Biblical context must do justice to this fundamental Biblical principle: sin reigns over the unregenerate heart. The sinner is not free to please or love God. Biblical freedom, the ability to do that which is pleasing to God ( John 8:34-36; cf. Romans 6:15-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17 ), Freedom from sin, is given to us by the redemptive work of Christ.---

---Jesus said: "The good man brings forth good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored in his heart. For out of the outflow of his heart his mouth speaks" ( Luke 6:45; cf. Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 12:33-35 ). A person chooses and acts according to his character. The will is not independent of the person and nature who chooses. We do what we want to do ( Deuteronomy 30:19; Matthew 17:12 Jas 1:14), even though our characters, which are themselves determined by a myriad of forces external to us and outside of our control, determine what we want to do. Personal character is not nearly as spontaneous as those who see the will as a power of contrary choice like to suggest.--- (Taken from the book "why I am not an arminian")

So you ask, how can God be completely Sovereign and man be held completely responsible? Here are two very clear biblical examples.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

What is the compatiblist definition of Man's freedom?

"The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

Many people probably acknowledge compatibilism without even realizing it. Before you eat dinner, do you give thanks for it? Why? It was you who worked for the money, bought the food cooked the meal, right? Does that make you a robot?

Here is more examples of compatibilism with the regenerate heart recorded in scripture. The Bible tells us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:13-13, but does this make it any less through, by and from God?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude shows the same...

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;

23 But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

The point is, that the context of our recent discussions on the topic of God's sovereignty in this forum have missed the mark right from the starting gates. I'll add more later if needed. I just wanted to lay some ground work out for a propper, Biblical discussion.

Dave

I would say that Human will is not compatable with Divine Sovereignty which is the reason why we are asked to willing give up our will in exchange for the will of God so that His will is our will.

[Guest shiloh357]

Divine sovereignty and human will, Compatible or Incompatible?

God's sovereignty is not affected, no matter how free or how enslaved one might be. So to pit God's sovereignty against mans freedom in reality doesn't solve anything. One does not cancel the other out. Freedom cancels out enslavement, and vise versa. God sovereignty is unaffected through all of this.

"The incompadibilist seeks to find some room for the sovereignty of God within the assumption of libertarian freedom. But incompatibilism fails badly as a way of understanding the relationship between divine sovereignty and human freedom. First, it assumes a libertarian view of freedom. Human beings always possess the power of contrary choice. Second, incompatibilism insists that such a notion of freedom is the necessary condition for moral accountability: I cannot be held responsible if I could not choose to do otherwise. Third, in this view the sovereignty of God is necessarily limited by human freedom. If God has ordained that I perform some act, I could not choose otherwise and thus I am not truly free. While this collection of assumptions constitutes a coherent whole, each is no more than an assumption. And while they are all taken as having self-evident power within Arminian theological circles, we can find no evidence that scripture teaches or assumes any of them.---

---Scripture seems to deny the very sort of independence that the libertarian freedom demands. Human beings are never independent of God. Whereas incompatibilism holds that libertarian freedom--independence from all causes and forces external to the will--is the prerequisite for responsibility, the Bible seams to assume the opposite: responsibility is the necessary condition for freedom. The gift of responsible choice has meaning and significance not because of any connection to libertarian freedom but because it is an essential aspect of our imaging God. Freedom in scripture is not independence from God and His will but dependence upon God and our faithful participation in His Kingdom.

True freedom, freedom in the Biblical sense, is the liberty to obey God without restraint, without sin standing in the way.---

---Scripture teaches that the sinner is a slave to sin. A slave is not free but bound. Any discussion of freedom within a Christian or Biblical context must do justice to this fundamental Biblical principle: sin reigns over the unregenerate heart. The sinner is not free to please or love God. Biblical freedom, the ability to do that which is pleasing to God ( John 8:34-36; cf. Romans 6:15-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17 ), Freedom from sin, is given to us by the redemptive work of Christ.---

---Jesus said: "The good man brings forth good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored in his heart. For out of the outflow of his heart his mouth speaks" ( Luke 6:45; cf. Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 12:33-35 ). A person chooses and acts according to his character. The will is not independent of the person and nature who chooses. We do what we want to do ( Deuteronomy 30:19; Matthew 17:12 Jas 1:14), even though our characters, which are themselves determined by a myriad of forces external to us and outside of our control, determine what we want to do. Personal character is not nearly as spontaneous as those who see the will as a power of contrary choice like to suggest.--- (Taken from the book "why I am not an arminian")

So you ask, how can God be completely Sovereign and man be held completely responsible? Here are two very clear biblical examples.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

What is the compatiblist definition of Man's freedom?

"The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

Many people probably acknowledge compatibilism without even realizing it. Before you eat dinner, do you give thanks for it? Why? It was you who worked for the money, bought the food cooked the meal, right? Does that make you a robot?

Here is more examples of compatibilism with the regenerate heart recorded in scripture. The Bible tells us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:13-13, but does this make it any less through, by and from God?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude shows the same...

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;

23 But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

The point is, that the context of our recent discussions on the topic of God's sovereignty in this forum have missed the mark right from the starting gates. I'll add more later if needed. I just wanted to lay some ground work out for a propper, Biblical discussion.

Dave

The funny thing is that I don't really disagree with anything in that article. I am a compatiblist, and I think a number of people on here that have been participating in these discussions are as well.

I am afraid you don't really grasp the context of the discussion we are having.

I do not believe that God's sovereignty and man' free will are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are incompatible at all.

The issue we have been debating for the last couple of days is whether or not God causes or condones sin.

I raised the issue about a 14 year old girl that had been kidnapped, raped and killed here in my town some days ago. My question was whether or not it was according to God's will that it happen. The answer I was given was "yes."That is what I reject. I do not believe that God causes or condones sin, but there are those on this board who take the sovereignty of God to mean that every action sinful or not is according to God's Will and design. Their position is that the Fall of man happened because God wanted it to happen, which ultimately makes God responsible for sin, and that is what we are rejecting.

This is not a classic Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate and I think you have mistaken it for such.

I firmly believe that God can make a bad situation turn out to be for His glory, as was done in the example above about the life of Joseph. I don't think any of dispute that. What I don't accept is that God orchestrated it. God does not use the sin itself, but God did use the situation. He did not cause Joseph brothers to sell him into slavery, but God used the situation to His glory and to the eventual benefit of the brothers.

As for the example given about Jesus in relation to the religious leaders, Herod, Pilate, et al., this is covered by Paul in Romans chapter nine. They hardened their hearts and God used them in that condition to bring about His Will. Jesus was in complete control of the events surrounding His crucifixion and death. No one, utlimately took Jesus' life. He died at the moment He chose to die. He did not die as a result of the effects of crucifixion, but rather, gave up His spirit voluntarily, which is something only He could do. Jesus had the power to exercise personal power over death. Jesus did not cause anyone reject Him. He did not force them to nail Him to the cross, He did not force them to mock him or flog Him. They, like Pharoah hardened their hearts against God's Will and it was used to bring glory to God.

I think you have misjudged what it is some of us believe. It appears you have decided what it is you think we believe and don't really grasp the correct tenor of the discussions we have been having.

[godrulz]

The problem in this ongoing debate is a flawed view of God's sovereignty as monothetic (one will)-deterministic-meticulous-omnicausal. God is omnicompetent, not omnicausal. The biblical picture is that God is sovereign providentially, responsively, creatively, omnicompetent (i.e. macro vs micromanages).

Compatibilism is a philosophical, deductive attempt to retain this hyper-sovereignty view. Many argue that genuine freedom/responsibility is libertarian (redundant).

I assume you hold to TULIP. This is problematic and makes God's love arbitrary and limited. It also makes God ultimately responsible for heinous evil. God causing the desires that make us freely choose is double speak.

Open Theism is a more biblical, consistent free will/relational theism. It is generally misunderstood or misrepresented by Calvinists.

www.opentheism.info

www.gregboyd.org

[kross]

Divine sovereignty and human will, Compatible or Incompatible?

God's sovereignty is not affected, no matter how free or how enslaved one might be. So to pit God's sovereignty against mans freedom in reality doesn't solve anything. One does not cancel the other out. Freedom cancels out enslavement, and vise versa. God sovereignty is unaffected through all of this.

"The incompadibilist seeks to find some room for the sovereignty of God within the assumption of libertarian freedom. But incompatibilism fails badly as a way of understanding the relationship between divine sovereignty and human freedom. First, it assumes a libertarian view of freedom. Human beings always possess the power of contrary choice. Second, incompatibilism insists that such a notion of freedom is the necessary condition for moral accountability: I cannot be held responsible if I could not choose to do otherwise. Third, in this view the sovereignty of God is necessarily limited by human freedom. If God has ordained that I perform some act, I could not choose otherwise and thus I am not truly free. While this collection of assumptions constitutes a coherent whole, each is no more than an assumption. And while they are all taken as having self-evident power within Arminian theological circles, we can find no evidence that scripture teaches or assumes any of them.---

---Scripture seems to deny the very sort of independence that the libertarian freedom demands. Human beings are never independent of God. Whereas incompatibilism holds that libertarian freedom--independence from all causes and forces external to the will--is the prerequisite for responsibility, the Bible seams to assume the opposite: responsibility is the necessary condition for freedom. The gift of responsible choice has meaning and significance not because of any connection to libertarian freedom but because it is an essential aspect of our imaging God. Freedom in scripture is not independence from God and His will but dependence upon God and our faithful participation in His Kingdom.

True freedom, freedom in the Biblical sense, is the liberty to obey God without restraint, without sin standing in the way.---

---Scripture teaches that the sinner is a slave to sin. A slave is not free but bound. Any discussion of freedom within a Christian or Biblical context must do justice to this fundamental Biblical principle: sin reigns over the unregenerate heart. The sinner is not free to please or love God. Biblical freedom, the ability to do that which is pleasing to God ( John 8:34-36; cf. Romans 6:15-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17 ), Freedom from sin, is given to us by the redemptive work of Christ.---

---Jesus said: "The good man brings forth good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored in his heart. For out of the outflow of his heart his mouth speaks" ( Luke 6:45; cf. Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 12:33-35 ). A person chooses and acts according to his character. The will is not independent of the person and nature who chooses. We do what we want to do ( Deuteronomy 30:19; Matthew 17:12 Jas 1:14), even though our characters, which are themselves determined by a myriad of forces external to us and outside of our control, determine what we want to do. Personal character is not nearly as spontaneous as those who see the will as a power of contrary choice like to suggest.--- (Taken from the book "why I am not an arminian")

So you ask, how can God be completely Sovereign and man be held completely responsible? Here are two very clear biblical examples.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

What is the compatiblist definition of Man's freedom?

"The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

Many people probably acknowledge compatibilism without even realizing it. Before you eat dinner, do you give thanks for it? Why? It was you who worked for the money, bought the food cooked the meal, right? Does that make you a robot?

Here is more examples of compatibilism with the regenerate heart recorded in scripture. The Bible tells us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:13-13, but does this make it any less through, by and from God?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude shows the same...

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;

23 But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

The point is, that the context of our recent discussions on the topic of God's sovereignty in this forum have missed the mark right from the starting gates. I'll add more later if needed. I just wanted to lay some ground work out for a propper, Biblical discussion.

Dave

The funny thing is that I don't really disagree with anything in that article. I am a compatiblist, and I think a number of people on here that have been participating in these discussions are as well.

I am afraid you don't really grasp the context of the discussion we are having.

I do not believe that God's sovereignty and man' free will are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are incompatible at all.

The issue we have been debating for the last couple of days is whether or not God causes or condones sin.

I raised the issue about a 14 year old girl that had been kidnapped, raped and killed here in my town some days ago. My question was whether or not it was according to God's will that it happen. The answer I was given was "yes."That is what I reject. I do not believe that God causes or condones sin, but there are those on this board who take the sovereignty of God to mean that every action sinful or not is according to God's Will and design. Their position is that the Fall of man happened because God wanted it to happen, which ultimately makes God responsible for sin, and that is what we are rejecting.

This is not a classic Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate and I think you have mistaken it for such.

I firmly believe that God can make a bad situation turn out to be for His glory, as was done in the example above about the life of Joseph. I don't think any of dispute that. What I don't accept is that God orchestrated it. God does not use the sin itself, but God did use the situation. He did not cause Joseph brothers to sell him into slavery, but God used the situation to His glory and to the eventual benefit of the brothers.

As for the example given about Jesus in relation to the religious leaders, Herod, Pilate, et al., this is covered by Paul in Romans chapter nine. They hardened their hearts and God used them in that condition to bring about His Will. Jesus was in complete control of the events surrounding His crucifixion and death. No one, utlimately took Jesus' life. He died at the moment He chose to die. He did not die as a result of the effects of crucifixion, but rather, gave up His spirit voluntarily, which is something only He could do. Jesus had the power to exercise personal power over death. Jesus did not cause anyone reject Him. He did not force them to nail Him to the cross, He did not force them to mock him or flog Him. They, like Pharoah hardened their hearts against God's Will and it was used to bring glory to God.

I think you have misjudged what it is some of us believe. It appears you have decided what it is you think we believe and don't really grasp the correct tenor of the discussions we have been having.

We were not debating is GOD causes sin. We ars debating if GOD planned for it and uses it in HIS plans. Does god send evil spirits to do HIS work. The Bible gives many scriptures that say HE does.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I'm closing this thread and any other dealing with this Doctrine and asking that those opening them and participating in them keep them to one thread.

Peace,

Dave