Where does 'good' come from?

[Dave123]

Hi legoman. I'm short on time today. Check out my thread called *"bare Permission" is unbiblical*. Maybe that will help you to understand where I'm coming from.

Fraught, a question for you if you don't mind. I need to try to understand exactly what you are saying for me to respond correctly. When you speak of 'man's free will', what are you claiming man's will is free from? From sin? God's sovereinty?

Dave

[legoman]

Hi legoman. I'm short on time today. Check out my thread called *"bare Permission" is unbiblical*. Maybe that will help you to understand where I'm coming from.

Fraught, a question for you if you don't mind. I need to try to understand exactly what you are saying for me to respond correctly. When you speak of 'man's free will', what are you claiming man's will is free from? From sin? God's sovereinty?

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the ref to the other thread. I read through it, and it appears perhaps we are in closer agreement than I thought?

God is sovereign, God is in control, therefore God is responsible for good AND evil.

Hm, not sure if we are completely off topic from your original post... but it does show (perhaps in some mixed up way) the necessity of evil in order to understand good

Let me ask you this on slightly different a tangent:

Do you believe good will triumph over evil and God will eventually reconcile the world to himself?

2 Cor 5:18-21 and Col 1:20 speak of God reconciling all things (and the world).

Cheers,

Legoman

[Fraught]

Hi legoman. I'm short on time today. Check out my thread called *"bare Permission" is unbiblical*. Maybe that will help you to understand where I'm coming from.

Fraught, a question for you if you don't mind. I need to try to understand exactly what you are saying for me to respond correctly. When you speak of 'man's free will', what are you claiming man's will is free from? From sin? God's sovereinty?

Dave

thank you for your courtesy in asking. i'm speaking more of 'free to'. i hadn't considered 'free from'. it's an interesting question. but are we not free to choose? God said "I put before you death or life. Choose."

i couldn't imagine that anyone is free from sin or God's sovereignty in the sense that they live in 1) a world whose prince is the devil and 2) a world that ultimately belongs to God, whether they realize it or not.

[larryt]

Hi legoman. I'm short on time today. Check out my thread called *"bare Permission" is unbiblical*. Maybe that will help you to understand where I'm coming from.

Fraught, a question for you if you don't mind. I need to try to understand exactly what you are saying for me to respond correctly. When you speak of 'man's free will', what are you claiming man's will is free from? From sin? God's sovereinty?

Dave

thank you for your courtesy in asking. i'm speaking more of 'free to'. i hadn't considered 'free from'. it's an interesting question. but are we not free to choose? God said "I put before you death or life. Choose."

i couldn't imagine that anyone is free from sin or God's sovereignty in the sense that they live in 1) a world whose prince is the devil and 2) a world that ultimately belongs to God, whether they realize it or not.

A question that many do not ponder. very perceptive Fraught.

LT

[Dave123]

Hi legoman.

I'm still short on time but I do have a question that may save us some time in our discussion. Are you familiar with the infralapsarianism (sublapsarianism) vs. supralapsarianism debate? I don't ask this to debate it with you, but only because the debate itself drives one to consider the first "cause" when it come to evil. Everything after Adam and Eve is justice. Adam and Eve, in my mind, if there was a libertarian free will, they would qualify. I really don't know. I do know that they were not enslaved to a sinful nature before the fall. So, it's not that they couldn't choose evil, but more so, before the fall, that they could choose good.

We can only look to scripture to try to pc. it together. As I stated in the past, everything that God created, He created good. That should tell us something there. Along with other things that have been posted earier in this thread. I won't get into it all again. In short, I believe that the burdon of proof would fall on your shoulders to prove that God caused Satan to rebel, likewise, where we are concerned, that God caused Adam to fall. I don't believe scripture goes that far, therefore I believe it would be innappropriate to claim it as Biblical fact. Also, the circumstancial evidence, if you want to call it that, some of which I posted earlier, tells me that God cannot be the cause of evil.

Fraught

I borrowed that question from this pc.

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/02...w_hendryx_1.php

The idea was to get a fresh perspective. People define freedom, or free will in so many different ways these days that it's important that we all understand what we mean when we use that term. Anyways, read the pc., it's short. I think that Hendryx's question cuts through some of the misunderstandings behind the term when it is used.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Dave123

[legoman]

Hi legoman.

I'm still short on time but I do have a question that may save us some time in our discussion. Are you familiar with the infralapsarianism (sublapsarianism) vs. supralapsarianism debate? I don't ask this to debate it with you, but only because the debate itself drives one to consider the first "cause" when it come to evil. Everything after Adam and Eve is justice. Adam and Eve, in my mind, if there was a libertarian free will, they would qualify. I really don't know. I do know that they were not enslaved to a sinful nature before the fall. So, it's not that they couldn't choose evil, but more so, before the fall, that they could choose good.

We can only look to scripture to try to pc. it together. As I stated in the past, everything that God created, He created good. That should tell us something there. Along with other things that have been posted earier in this thread. I won't get into it all again. In short, I believe that the burdon of proof would fall on your shoulders to prove that God caused Satan to rebel, likewise, where we are concerned, that God caused Adam to fall. I don't believe scripture goes that far, therefore I believe it would be innappropriate to claim it as Biblical fact. Also, the circumstancial evidence, if you want to call it that, some of which I posted earlier, tells me that God cannot be the cause of evil.

Fraught

I borrowed that question from this pc.

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/02...w_hendryx_1.php

The idea was to get a fresh perspective. People define freedom, or free will in so many different ways these days that it's important that we all understand what we mean when we use that term. Anyways, read the pc., it's short. I think that Hendryx's question cuts through some of the misunderstandings behind the term when it is used.

Hi Dave,

No unfortunately I'm not familiar with infra* supra* (who comes up with these terms?! )

Yes it really comes down to Adam & Eve - did they have a sinful nature from the beginning (ie. before they ate from the tree)? I think I made a reasonable case for that in my last post. I leave it for you to consider.

Regarding God creating Satan, these verses indicate that God created Satan to be the adversary (not a perfect archangel):

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

To me, these verses are clear. God created the waster to destroy - he formed the crooked serpent. He created the devil who was a murderer from the beginining. Satan was never in the truth. Therefore Satan was never "perfect" and then fell from heaven.

Here is something for you to consider. You say everything God created was "good". Yet it clearly says he has "created the waster to destroy". His hand "formed the crooked serpent". Perhaps when God says everything was good, He means it was good for the purpose he intended it for.

You can decide for yourself what these verses mean. This is my understanding: God needed an adversary so he could teach us what goodness is. So He went ahead and created the adversary to do exactly what He wanted.

If you want to read a bit more on the "Myth of Lucifer", check out this article: http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

It is definitely written from a different perspective than you might normally hear, but it backs everything up with scripture, and does quite a good job on explaining the Ezekiel 28/Isaiah 14 "Lucifer Myth". It is long but worth a read.

Regarding the article link you posted, I think I mostly agree with their definition of free will. Free will means free from any influence or outside coercion (as they put it). With that definition we cannot have free will. What we have is a "caused" will. We make choices, and those choices have a cause. Cause and effect. The article goes on to say we are either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ (Romans 6). 100% agree there. However you slice it, we don't have a free will.

Cheers,

Legoman

[~JM~]

[legoman]

Hi JM,

I pretty much 100% (maybe 99%) agree with what you said here. Eph 1:11 is just too clear and cannot be ignored. You state it clearly: "all things" are ordained by God and not a single event can takes place in time that isn

[legoman]

In Genesis 50 we read the monstrous story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers. This was a terrible sin committed against Joseph by his brothers and it was compounded when the brothers lied to their father and told him Joseph was dead. Latter in the story Joseph spoke with his brothers after Jacob his father died and we are told of the conversation in which Joseph says,

Edited January 14, 2009 by legoman

[~JM~]

Does that correspond with what you meant?