If that is the way you see it playing out then that is your perspective. Time will tell huh?

Amen Omegaman, I agree

I disagree mega, but it's all good. You're still my brother in Christ and no one gets to call you a "heretic" for seeing this the way you do.

4 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

If that is the way you see it playing out then that is your perspective. Time will tell huh?

Surely time will. I am suspicious though, that God did not put so much information about it in the Bible, just to keep us guessing. I think He put things there, for people to know, and understand, that need to know, and understand. Maybe that is not us! It is possible, that of all the possible ways that it could play out, that we have yet to hear the correct one.

One thing that I believe, sets what I wrote apart from what some write, is that every point I made in the post, has scripture posted with it, that needed nothing added to it. No secret or invisible raptures, that the Bible does not specify. No assumptions about who the restrainer is. No asserting that His return is imminent, it a way the Bible does not indicate, and no confusion about whether the tribulation is equal to the wrath of God etc. Things like that, things assumed but not explicit, are reasons why I reject most views.

For me in boils down to being uncertain, but putting less confidence in views that have more problems with plain, unadulterated scripture.

3 hours ago, RobertS said:

I disagree mega, but it's all good. You're still my brother in Christ and no one gets to call you a "heretic" for seeing this the way you do.

Thank you Robert,for your gracious attitude. Being called a heretic, well, it wouldn't be the first time. Being heretics, is what we need to avoid! On topics like this, if someone calls you a heretic, I figure likely there are two possible reasons.

One, they have no clue what a heretic is or

two, they have run out of intelligent responses.

It's all good, thanks for commenting!

5 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Surely time will. I am suspicious though, that God did not put so much information about it in the Bible, just to keep us guessing. I think He put things there, for people to know, and understand, that need to know, and understand. Maybe that is not us! It is possible, that of all the possible ways that it could play out, that we have yet to hear the correct one.

One thing that I believe, sets what I wrote apart from what some write, is that every point I made in the post, has scripture posted with it, that needed nothing added to it. No secret or invisible raptures, that the Bible does not specify. No assumptions about who the restrainer is. No asserting that His return is imminent, it a way the Bible does not indicate, and no confusion about whether the tribulation is equal to the wrath of God etc. Things like that, things assumed but not explicit, are reasons why I reject most views.

For me in boils down to being uncertain, but putting less confidence in views that have more problems with plain, unadulterated scripture.

You are right. God did not tell us how it will play out. I am ok with pre,mid and post trib. I am not ok with the  preterist view.

Just now, bopeep1909 said:

You are right. God did not tell us how it will play out. I am ok with pre,mid and post trib. I am not ok with the  preterist view.

I also am very uneasy with the preterist view, however, may pastor is what he calls an Amillenial Preterest, and as much as I would have bet that I would find the position untenable, he makes it sound pretty reasonable. I hold my views pretty confidently, but, I grip them lightly, knowing that I am not infallible.

6 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I also am very uneasy with the preterist view, however, may pastor is what he calls an Amillenial Preterest, and as much as I would have bet that I would find the position untenable, he makes it sound pretty reasonable. I hold my views pretty confidently, but, I grip them lightly, knowing that I am not infallible.

I am also not comfortable with the Amillennial view.They just tear the book of Revelation apart. I think that is dangerous.

The Rapture of the Church will happen before the Tribulation for these very reasons

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

 Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

Scripture also states that Satan knows that he has but a short time.

Revelation 12:12,Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Taking in the fact that we and Satan live in eternity future, Satan knew he had but a short time the day he rebelled against the Father, and the fact the Jesus defeated him by His death and resurrection. Any length of time cut from a life to be lived in eternity, no matter when this occurs will be but a short time.

The disciples asked Jesus when will this all occur?

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

5, And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

7, And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9, But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

    10, And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

All these things so far at one time or another have been happening since Jesus returned to Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us and guide us. The only thing I can see that has not yet occurred is the fact the gospel has not yet been preached among all nations.

There have been tribes found deep in South America, Papua New Guinea, and other parts of the Earth that have not yet even heard of God, the gospel, or Jesus.

On 7/7/2016 at 6:13 PM, HAZARD said:

The Rapture of the Church will happen before the Tribulation for these very reasons

 

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

and blah blah blah

Not trying to be disrespectful, as if you had nothing to say, just pointing out that there is way too much to address. This is a blog, hazard, not a normal thread. As egotisical as it may sound, that means it is about what I think, not really a sounding board of soapbox for how much you disagree with what I think.

You can start a thread on the topic in the forums, or you can respond to existing topics, you can even start your own blog.

However, I would suggest that if you want to make a scriptural case for your opinion, you might want to start with some scriptural facts. Here, you started the defense of your position with:

"The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes . . ."

If it is true, that the purpose of the rapture is 'such and such', then maybe you should consider showing a verse that states what the purpose is. Without a passage of scripture, a statement like "the purpose  is" is just your thought, not a biblical position.

If I say:

"The purpose of the 2016 U.S. presidential elections, is to boost Hillary Clinton into a position power to become a world dictator!"

Does that statement have credibility, just because I said it? While no one has discredited anything I have said, that does not mean that I am infallible. I suspect that maybe not everyone is convinced that you are infallible either, so perhaps, use the scripture as the authority, and derive your thesis from that. Then comment on the basis of scripture and let other think for themselves, about what the purpose is, or even if knowing the purpose, is important. Just a thought!

Following is a post, intercepted an modified by Omegaman, hoping to drive a point home. Hazard said:

Like you said, Not trying to be disrespectful, and blah blah blah

That there has been one already and will be four more raptures in the first resurrection?

First, the going to Heaven of Christ . . . .

My edit: SNIP!!!

*************LOTS OF WORDS REMOVED*********************

Hazard continued:

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

Omegaman continueing his edit:

and now, back to your regularly scheduled program! 

Sorry Hazard, but you did not seem to get the message last time. This is not a discussion forum, this is a Blog. Here, I am a dictator, here, is about what I think. You are free to post what you want in the regular forum area (subject to the terms of service of course). You are also free to pontificate in YOUR  blog, but I limit that here.

What I do not think you understand is that this is a blog, and as a blog, the topic is not what I am speaking to, it is actually about  my thoughts. Think of it like this. There are talk shows, were there are panels of people talking, like that horrible one on TV in the morning with all the women sitting around a table. There are radio talk shows, where people call in, and the host interacts with them about what they want to talk about. Then there are talk shows, like the Rush Limbaugh program, where he and his thoughts are the topic. The program is not about random topics or topics lead by others, the program is really about HIS thoughts.

That is what a blog is like, it is not a dialogue, it is a monologue by the blogger, and he/she may entertain comments from guests, but it is not for letting guests just take over and run with it. Guests who have much to say, need to start their own blogs and say what they choose to say, and exercise control over the content. Optionally, they can say all they want to say, in the areas of the forum set aside to that purpose.

In short, you will not be allowed to expound freely here. After this, you may not want to remark at all, but if you want to make it about your opinion, that is not going to happen, you will just find your access restricted.

Sorry, I thought this was about the rapture, not realising it was a blog and thought you would be interested I what the Bible has to say about the rapture, nothing more? Don't worry Adolph, I wont respond to anything you post ever again, anywhere on this board!

No wonder people get frustrated about religion and let go of God!

On 9/20/2016 at 9:31 PM, HAZARD said:

Sorry, I thought this was about the rapture, not realising it was a blog and thought you would be interested I what the Bible has to say about the rapture, nothing more? Don't worry Adolph, I wont respond to anything you post ever again, anywhere on this board!

No wonder people get frustrated about religion and let go of God!

Well, do as you like, I am interested in the topic, and I entertain and respond to views of others on the forums all the time.

I can certainly understand why you did not realize that it was a blog, since it merely says "A Blog, by Omegaman 3.0" right at the top of the page, so why would you assume that it was actually a blog by Omegaman 3.0?

People, however, to not get frustrated about religion, and let go of God. The appear to turn away from God, when they consciously decide to go their own way, and in their pride, rebel against Him.

While I find your opinions fascinating I also don't agree with you. I think God would not be so cruel for one thing to make those who believe in him go through the Tribulation .

I was thinking of posting my blog here but not so sure now if people are going to argue ...though I see a majority of these are theological

On 10/2/2016 at 4:35 AM, Holly Hobbie said:

While I find your opinions fascinating I also don't agree with you. I think God would not be so cruel for one thing to make those who believe in him go through the Tribulation .

I attended a dinner event once, where the pastor I had at the time, was the scheduled speaker. One of the things he said Holly, was: "I know all of the arguments for the pre, mid, and post-trib rapture theories. What always brings me to conclude, that the pre-trib view is correct, is the character of God. God would not allow His people to suffer like that!"

Though I did not say anything to him about his conclusion, my thought was "I wonder if he is reading the same Bible that I am." The Bible I read, has God allowing a very righteous man, Job, to suffer at the hands of Satan, not becuase Job deserved it, and not because God did not love Job. In fact, God had just bragged on what  righteous man Job was, saying: "There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

Clearly then it IS within Gods character to allow His people to suffer.

Similarly, the old testament prophets, were often persectuted, suffered, and even killed. According to tradition, all of the Apostles with the exception of John, died martyr's deaths. The church, from the very beginning, and up tp the present day, continues to suffer persection and death.

God certainly allows suffering and tribulation, for those who believe in Him, unless the Bible and history, are both wrong. One can believe that "God would not be so cruel to make those who believe in him go through the Tribulation".

However, here is where I disagree with your statement. I do not believe that God MAKES believers suffer in these circumstances. I believe that He ALLOWS it. I also think that He has reasons for this. Do you recall that the disciples asked Jesus:

"Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

Jesus told the that it was not because of anyone's sin, that he was born blind, but that his blindness, was for God's glory. When a believer suffers, it can be for God's glory. Beleivers are told, in th New Testament, some some will suffer and die. We are to expect trouble. In fact we are even told in 2 Tim 3:

You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 

Jesus said (Matt 5):

 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

      “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

So, let me ask this:

Is it cruel of God, to give eternal blessings to those of us (you and I) who deserve to suffer in Hell, eternal blessings in eternity? I think that is awesome. When we are focusing on the temporal things, like suffering in this life, we are losing our perspective of what really matters - eternal life, the Kingdom of God. 

I would also have you ponder the significance of what you are saying. If it turns out, that the church goes through the tribulation, then you will have turned out to have called God cruel. I don't think I would go there. I believe that many people believe it is cruel to have people go to Hell. I do not see it as cruel. I see it as justice. I see that God is sovereign and He can do what He chooses with His creation, and be totally right, good, and even loving, when He does so.

Some people think of a promise in the Bible which says:

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath"

I totally agree with that. God's wrath is what I just spoke to, the eternal suffering in Hell that unbeleivers will go through. When people quote the "not appointed to wrath" verse, they often leave of the second part of that verse, what we ARE appointed to:

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So as I see it, Paul tells us in Romans 5:

Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

So, if we do not go through suffering, we are being deprived of preseverance, character, and hope. Suffering, percescution, tribulation etc, are GOOD for the church. It purifies us, it glorifies God, it stores up extra rewards for us in Heaven.

I do not see much of a eternal or spiritual downside here. Sure, it is not pleasant at the time, but life fades:

 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 

For,

“All people are like grass,

and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;

the grass withers and the flowers fall,

but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

And this is the word that was preached to you.

1 Pet, chapter 1

The tribulation holds a lot of fear for those focused on the natural. We (Christians) however, look to the supernatural, and see that tribulation can be a good thing.

John 16:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me you might have peace. In the world youe shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Be blessed Holly, thanks for commenting on my blog.

I agree with the Post Trib Belief. I always felt alone in this belief. 

But when it comes to the Lord. I do not mind being in the Minority.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the Worst. 

On 6/12/2017 at 1:43 PM, nickn said:

I agree with the Post Trib Belief. I always felt alone in this belief. 

But when it comes to the Lord. I do not mind being in the Minority.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the Worst. 

Yeah, don't worry about numbers, truth is not a popularity contest! Actually there are a fair number of posties here at Worthy, though there are indeed a lot of premies to be sure. I initially felt like I was in the minority here, when I started here in 2004. What I find encouraging though, is that the arguments of pre-trib believers against post-trib arguments, not only fail to undermine post-trib theory, but often serve to demonstrate how weak the pre-trib position is.

No matter how it all shakes out, we need to be ready, be good stewards, and be willing to live out events and the will of God no matter what it costs us, we (believers) all win in the end, no matter how we understand these things, and in the end, we will all agree!

Luke 21:36, Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

To escape what things? The things which will occur during the tribulation.

On 7/4/2016 at 9:51 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

...I am suspicious though, that God did not put so much information about it in the Bible, just to keep us guessing. I think He put things there, for people to know, and understand, that need to know, and understand. Maybe that is not us! It is possible, that of all the possible ways that it could play out, that we have yet to hear the correct one.

Dan. 12:10 ...none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

He has promised to reveal "the correct one [understanding]," as you put it -- just as He always has.

On 6/17/2017 at 4:12 PM, HAZARD said:

Luke 21:36, Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

To escape what things? The things which will occur during the tribulation.

Sorry, that I never saw this and respond at the time, I just ran across this, because of a Google search, it should be responded to, so I will do so in short.

I agree, it is a reference to the tribulation, and the coming judgement. The phrase "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape" is an interesting one.

For those who are KJV only, only the idea of "worthy to escape" will be acceptable, that is fine. However, I am not a KJV onlyist.

However, even the Greek underlying the KJV is:

ἀγρυπνεῖτε οὖν ἐν παντὶ καιρῷ δεόμενοι ἵνα καταξιωθῆτε (katischysete - you may have strength) ἐκφυγεῖν (ekphygein - to escape, flee, run away) ταῦτα πάντα τὰ μέλλοντα γίνεσθαι καὶ σταθῆναι ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου

If you want to read more about the word katischysete, you can do so here:
https://biblehub.com/greek/2729.htm

So, it appears that the best or at least a likely translation is that the verse is saying "pray that you may have the strength to flee from these things that will come". This fits very well with the context, where it says:

21 “Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 “Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 

I think it is obvious then, at least to me, that this is a time to be running away, fleeing for one's life. This will take strength and endurance, or shall we suppose that somehow, pregnant and nursing mothers are less worthy than other people? See the point?

Some other translations render this as:

But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” English Standard Version

Watch also at every season, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man." Berean Literal Bible

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." New American Standard Bible.

Therefore, it is not just me, the Greek under various versions, KJV included, does not imply anything about worthyness.

In any case, the whole context there, is about the things that will be happening when Jesus returns after the tribulation, not a single word about any rapture before that time. The idea then is one of escape through flight, not through and imagined re-trib rapture, as appealing an idea as a pre-trib rapture might be. That very passage though is also in encouragement, for those who have the faith and trust to accept it's promises, and have hope in the big picture, not the temporary things of this life, this vapor, this blink of the eye:

16 “But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, 17 and you will be hated by all because of My name. 18 “Yet not a hair of your head will perish. 19 “By your endurance you will gain your lives.

The way our lives are spared, is in eternity, for those who endure. Perseverance is called for, not fear, or a hope that we will not be treated as the prophets and Christian martyrs of the ages, and even today in many parts of the world. What makes us think, that we are so special?

There is a list of things, though not limited to those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture theory, of things that the Bible does not say, yet people assert as though it does, for those who might wish to be aware of them.

This reply, though given to you Hazard, is really for the benefit of those who will read this. I would hope that they see the need to study the scripture and understand it as given, without adding in hazardous details to fulfill what was foretold in 2 Tim 4:3:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires"

Don't be an ear tickler! Keep your nose in the book, and your eye on the context.