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I was wondering the same thing about the world! Here's one. John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. The last day would have to be the last day of something. The "last day" would be the last day we see this world, as we know it, ..Babylon, governed by Satan and his faithful children. Not the first day of the tribulation, or middle of it, but the last day. The day Babylon gets destroyed in one hour, at the coming, the seventh trump/vial. The last day, when Babylon is no more. Nice connection Sister! The last day of Babylon...starts when the last trumpet sounds and is completed when the last vial is poured out, on the last day. Makes perfect sense. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 When does this happen? At the last day. When I came to this forum I was of the 6th seal rapture opinion, pre-wrath as some call it. After reading posts and discussing the topic, I'm joining the post-trib camp. It just makes more sense. Its important to remain teachable while engaging in discussions, which, isn't always easy because of all of the noisy gongs and clanging symbols you have to filter through. But the Holy Spirit will lead you into the truth and reveal the things to come. That's what He does. Started off pre-trib, changed to pre-wrath, now post-trib. Its what makes the most sense to me, at this point...still questioning...still learning.

I was wondering the same thing about the world! Here's one. John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. The last day would have to be the last day of something. The "last day" would be the last day we see this world, as we know it, ..Babylon, governed by Satan and his faithful children. Not the first day of the tribulation, or middle of it, but the last day. The day Babylon gets destroyed in one hour, at the coming, the seventh trump/vial. The last day, when Babylon is no more.

Well if people do see the covenant "with the many"....then they can more or less Mark Their Calendars and Set their Watches for the Abomination of Desolation in 3.5 Years and Christ's Return in 7 Years. Of course, that calls into question the Integrity of Scripture by Scuttling this Doctrine... (Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." The bible is a symbolic book, so we can't always be literal, but I do generally prefer a literal interpretation, and prefer not to assume concepts when the bible is unclear. I note two things about the scripture you quoted: (Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Firstly the verse specifically says the "day and the hour", not the "month and the year". With the various references to 1260 days, 1290 days and 1335 days its actually unclear on which day the Second Coming will occur. We know the approximate month, but the various 3.5 year periods are pointing to the period of persecution, or the period of the witnesses, or the end of the desolator, or the 42 months of rule of the beast. The actual day or hour of the second coming is not as clear. Secondly the present tense is used. In other words no one currently knows. This is like saying no-one knows when the opening ceremony of the Olympic games in 2028 will be. Its true, no-one knows, only God knows that date. But at this point it is not adviseable to assume we will never know, and can never know beforehand. When the Olympic games opening ceremony is announced, we will know the date. When the antichrist comes to power amidst deceiving signs and wonders, we will know its about 3.5 years left. Then we will know the approximate timeframes. Now the irony of the verses that you quote, is that the thief in the night is a second coming context, a blatant day of destruction: (2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." This thief in the night being a surprise to unbelievers at the second coming on a day of destruction is a common biblical theme: 1 Thess 4:17-5:4 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly,as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 2 Thess 1: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing firewith his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you Its a common error of pre-tribbers to associate the thief in the night with an unpredictable rapture, the bible however associates it with the more predictable second coming. Its a thief for unbelievers but it is not a surprise for prepared believers who know the signs of the times. The day we get our relief, is the day this destruction occurs.

A friend asked me something the other day that really made me think. He said, "Do you think being adopted has had an effect on the way you see God, as opposed to someone who wasn't?" When he asked me that, my first thought was, "No, it's nothing special. God's the same to everyone." However, the more I think about that, the more I realize it isn't true. Some people put God in a box; they believe that He can't possibly solve their problems. Some people are still trying to "win" Him over by their good deeds, though they have been believers for years. Many people see someone altogether different, although we're all looking at the same God. I realize that I will never, ever understand God, because His ways are higher than my ways, and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. (Isaiah 55:9) With that being said, one thing I have learned about God is that He truly loves all of His children. "How deep the Father's love for us How vast,beyond all measure." That He should give His ONLY son To make a wretch His treasure" How true that song is. He loves us SO much, that it simply cannot be measured. He only had one begotten Son. He gave him up, sacrificed a part of Himself, to make all of us wretched, hopeless people His treasure. That sure does sound like adoption to me. Giving up parts of yourself to treasure a child that wasn't yours from the beginning. Another characteristic of God reflected by adoption: unconditional love. If you've been adopted, and you didn't receive unconditional love from that, my heart hurts for you. I did receive that, and it truly is amazing. I pushed my parents away time and again, and I know I hurt them deeply with my rejection. But don't we do that to God every day? And He never gives up. Thank God they didn't give up on me. Consider this: Do you think that a child, or anyone for that matter, can comprehend a God that gives unconditional love, that will never give up no matter how many times we push Him away, that will NEVER abandon us, if they've never been shown it? I don't. My adoption HAS changed the way I see God. You see, when someone has been abandoned, they have all these doubts and insecurities. Being adopted didn't magically fix this. My understanding of what that truly means, with my parents and with God, did. No magic. Just the understanding that I was chosen, even though I felt that there must be something wrong with me. My parents chose me. God chose me, although I am dirty, shameful, and inadequate. I revel in that! How amazing it is to know that I don't have to do it all, because I can't! But He loves me anyway. He chose me as His son, and He will always take care of me. I know my parents can't always take care of me, but I know they will never stop trying. I understand that God picked me up out of my insecurities, He didn't let go, and He changed my life. "...From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." -Luke 12:48 If you have much, love on some kids. Adopt them, or foster them. It won't be easy, actually it'll be really hard. But it's amazing being loved by a parent who didn't HAVE to love you. God calls us all to do just that. James 1:27 "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." Thank you, Dad and Mom, for loving me unconditionally even though I put you guys through it over and over. I will never be able to express how thankful I am, or how loved I feel.

My view is if you don't vote you have no right to complain about who's in office, good bad or otherwise. Sure many do and its not against the law, nor should it be but if I know someone hasn't voted and then starts railing on about how bad our government is, Its pretty much a garentee I will ignore everything they have to say. Saying there's no difference between the major parties isn't an excuse either. Its a true statement in many cases my current governor is liberal in everything but party affiliation. There's third party's, and I actually found myself voting independent for the first time this year. I realize that right now they don't stand a chance-but think of this, what if every single person who "refused" to vote voted independent-I think wed be surprised at the results.

Your issue isn't with me but with the tens of millions (in the U.S. alone) of John Darby styled futurists that refer to it as the "7-year tribulation" before which they believe that Margaret MacDonald/John Darby were right about being removed, from our "great commission". Perhaps the prophets, apostles and other Christians of the 1st century just weren't as pious as 21st century Christian are, to be "rewarded" with an escape from tribulation. But then that goes for the millions throughout the Christian era and particularly in the Middle East and northern Africa today. Why don't you try some Bible searches like for "great tribulation" before you suggest something like you did? http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=great+tribulation&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1 Additionally you seem to be unaware that there were no lower case letters in the Koine Greek. And exactly opposite to your claim, "tribulation" is not only not capitalized, but neither is "great tribulation". The reason is because it was simply referring to a period of greater tribulation than there was throughout the last nearly 2,000 years of tribulation, that has been going on ever since John indicated that we join him in it. If you are using a doctrine driven heretical pop-bible that does capitalize Great Tribulation, I recommend you set it aside in favor of the KJV. I set my NKJV aside when I noticed that the term "Antichrist" was selectively capitalized. Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: 9 (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:) I recommend supporters familiarize themselves with the history of this doctrine in the church. Most in here are likely already aware that John Nelson Darby is credited as being the "father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism", because in the 19th century he penned the eschatological scheme of a "7-year" tribulation with a "pre-trib" "rapture" which he also combined with a "millennial reign". However Edward Irving (of the Irvingites) is the guy that should perhaps more properly be credited with its invention. However Edward Irving was influenced by Manuel de Lacunza, while the original seeds may have been planted through a 16th century Roman Catholic Jesuit named Francisco Ribera in a counter-reformation effort. However the reformers didn't buy into it. Indeed neither did the "church" until beginning in the 19th century, and that interest was limited to the Irvinites and the Plymouth Brethren, and would have perhaps disappeared if it hadn't been popularized in the 20th century west through C.I. Scolfield's annotated bible. "C. I. was so taken by the Ribera-Lacunza-Macdonald-Darby ideas that he decided to include them in the annotated Bible he was working on. Sound Bible scholars of the day like A. J. Gordon, Charles R. Erdman and W.G. Moorhead tried to dissuade him. Three members of Scofield's revision committee even resigned because of his unswerving support for the view, but their voices were not heard. The seven-year-tribulation doctrine remained . . . and that's how a Jesuit's imaginative creation ..... was incorporated into the now-famous notes of the Scofield Reference Bible." Ellis Skolfield Dr. Harry Ironside of the Moody Bible Institute, was a highly regarded adherent to the Ribera-Lacunza-Macdonald-Darby-Scofield eschatological scheme, and even admitted in his Mysteries of God, p.50: ". . . until brought to the fore through the writings of . . . Mr. J. N. Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [i.e., the Seven-Year Tribulation theory] is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines . . . the literature of the reformation . . . the Puritans. He will find the 'mystery' conspicuous by its absence." ~ Ellis Skolfield The following is authored by Dave MacPherson who devoted 20 years of his life to full-time study of the subject of the pre-trib rapture. You can read the long list of chronological dating of this doctrine by copy and pasting a chunk of the following text into a search engine. "Since the 1970's stunning new data has been surfacing about the pretribulation rapture's long-covered-up beginnings in the 1800's. In recent years several persons associated with Dallas Theological Seminary (which had long been pretribized) have reportedly gone to Britain to check on my research sources and then write books opposing my claims. In 1990 an Ohio pastor told me that Dr. _____ _____, the most qualified DTS prof, traveled there and came back and wrote nothing! The pastor added that he and some others had a good laugh. But change was coming. In 1993 Chuck Swindoll, who became DTS president after John Walvoord, stated: "I'm not sure we're going to make dispensationalism [the chief attraction of which is a pretrib rapture] a part of our marquee as we talk about our school." When asked if the word "dispensationalism" would disappear, he answered: "It may and perhaps it should" ("Christianity Today," Oct. 25, 1993)! But a few diehards (with the stubbornness of Iraqi insurgents and New Orleans looters) keep on milking their cash cow while continuing to cover up and twist the following historical facts about their latter-day, cult-like belief: 1825: British preacher Edward Irving revealed that he had been teaching some of dispensationalism's key aspects as early as late 1825. (John Darby-exalter R. A. Huebner has never even claimed to find any original prophetic idea in Darby before late 1826!) 1827-1830: Darby was still posttrib during these years. His 1827 paper had him waiting for only the posttrib "restitution of all things." After discussing in 1828 the "unity" of the church, he looked for only the Rev. 19 coming in 1829 and 1830. 1830: During the spring a young woman in Scotland, Margaret Macdonald, declared that she had discovered in the Bible what had never been seen by others: a rapture of "church" members described as a "pre-Antichrist" (or pretrib) event. Her words: "one taken and the other left" before "THE WICKED [Antichrist] be revealed." She was a partial rapturist seeing only part of the "church" raptured and the rest of the "church" left on earth. When she wrote that the "trial of the Church is from Antichrist," she meant the part of the church not included in her pretrib rapture. Leading partial rapturists including Pember and Govett have always applied the word "church" to the ones "left behind." Robert Norton, Irvingite historian and on-scene witness of Margaret's utterances, wrote that Margaret was the "first" to privately teach pretrib." Etc. etc. through 26 more dates until 2005 as the last item noted.

To answer your question, on the day of the Lord we are first raptured and avoid the wrath on that day, as per 1 Thessalonians 5 description of the destruction on the day of the Lord: 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ Rev 16:9 shows that the destruction of the prostitute city of "Babylon" only occurs at the 7th bowl of wrath, ie Babylon is destroyed at the end of the tribulation. Then the order of events in Rev 19 is as follows: v2 destruction of the prostitute v7 wedding feast v14 armies of heaven v15-21 destruction of the armies on earth So I suggest that the order of events at the end of the tribulation are the way the bible describes it, there are the 7 bowls of wrath , then there is the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation (ref Rev 20). Babylon is also destroyed at this time, THEN there is the wedding feast, then the armies of heaven, then the destruction of the armies of earth. Post tribbers believe the dead will arise first at the resurrection at the end of the tribulation, not before. You have got an incorrect view of the post -trib position, we believe the dead in Christ and the living are resurrected at the end of the tribulation. Of course the dead in Christ do not go through the great tribulation, just the living. I'm surprised you argue so vehemently against the post-trib position when you know so little about it.

Pawz, first of all, I want to congratulate you and your studies. I have heard many people try to interpret the Hebrew to match their theology, but they mess up terribly by ignoring the grammar (prefixes, suffixes, noun vs. verb vs. adjective, etc). Entire theologies have been developed based on a poor understanding of Hebrew grammar, and then passed around to others who do not study the grammar, but just accept the poor scholarship as true. When I first read the NT, I expected it to be anti-semitic, and a very poor translation. I had picked up what I considered to be a 'Gentile' bible, and the first thing I did was take the English translation of the OT, back to the original Hebrew to see if it was accurate. I found for the most part it to be a very accurate translation, but there were places which differed from the interpretation of the Jewish Rabbis. I looked at the grammar, and the added vowels, as well as the possible known scribal errors. To my surprise, I found that the differences were explanable and reasonable. So, I say that most English translations done by the major versions, are accurate, and convey the meaning of the original Hebrew. I have since met a Christian who teaches OT, and has an excellent knowledge of biblical Hebrew. I had thought that only Jewish Rabbis had that level of knowledge, as Hebrew has been the language of scripture studied by the Jewish people for thousands of years. My mind was changed with this Christian professor (Walter Kaiser). So, I do trust the standardly accepted translations, and if there is a question, I do go to the Hebrew. One rule of understanding of the Hebrew is that the first and most important level of understanding of scripture is what is called the 'plain meaning'. It says what it says. Any additional alleghorical, or spiritual/mystical understanding can not contradict or alter the plain/simple meaning. God wrote the book for people and in a way people can understand, so the plainest meaning is usually the correct way to interpret. Of course, scripture has a spiritual component, but Christians have the Holy Spirit to explain the spiritual meaning. Having grown up hearing some of the more mystical 'deeper' interpretations, and some of the extremes taken by those who use the text to find the more mystical leasons, I have learned to be cautious with these approaches.

However, John`s assignment was to bear - `...witness to the word of God & to the testimony of Jesus....` (Rev. 1:2) And what was that word & testimony? It was the `unveiling of Jesus Christ as He is known in the heavenly realms. It is the glorified, exalted Lord Jesus Christ. This is what the Father had great delight in unveiling, His only Son whom He placed at His right hand far above all powers & authorities. The Father gave all authority into His Son`s Hand to execute judgments. This is what we see unfold before us & what John wrote about. The things `which you have seen, & the things which are, & the things which shall take place,` are all through the Holy Spirit in relation to Christ. It is not about John & his world etc. it is about Christ & what He is doing - building the Body of Christ, receiving the judgment scroll, mediating for Israel, & finally dealing with Global powers. If you take the "Idealist" approach to prophecy it would be good if you would let me know. Please excuse me for presuming before we began, that a fellow Christian would assume a mutual understanding, that John was relating what he saw in the prophetic vision he was given. Not of his own will. But to your exclamation..... Was John given the assignment to physically "write the things" in his vision or not? Christians (and Jews for Old Testament prophecy) understand that some figures described in the figurative language of prophetic dreams and visions, represent actual people, places or things, as in the succession of 4 kingdom "beasts" in one of Daniel's dreams, or the succession of actual kingdoms of this prophecy as understood by so many. When we do couple an understanding that those were physical kingdoms that were prophesied of, with a more scholarly approach to Bible prophecy through an ethnographic hermeneutic - that is, recognizing that Bible prophecy is about God's people and the Holy Land and surroundings as opposed to, say, being about New York City - we consider those physical kingdoms at the point and place in history during which John lived and what the "world" was before him, at the time of his pen, and after he was gone. Strong's - world New Testament Greek Definition: 3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay} feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f AV - world 14, earth 1; 15 1) the inhabited earth 1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians 1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire 1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world 1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men 2) the universe, the world Can I recommend that in the future, you not write as though you are the ultimate arbiter of what is error and what is not, even if you actually believe you are the ultimate arbiter? Few things demonstrate the absence of a Berean spirit in a chat forum more, than an outright proclaimation that a brother or sister is wrong, or in error. Better to instead simply present what you believe to be right and let the discussion fall where it will.

The key is to know when God is speaking the truth to you through the Holy Spirit. We need to know if it is our own spirit who is trying to lead us, another spirit trying to mislead us or if the Spirit is trying to show us the truth. This can only be done through a close relationship with God, one where we know when He is speaking and when He is not. Without this relationship, and knowing His voice, people are led astray by their own desires or another spirit. That is why there are so many false teachings.

It's a shame timing has become associated with prophecy in that it takes away from the encouragement, exhortation and conviction that builds us. Instead we have debate. None of us know when the Lord may come for us personally, that is eminence. I may not wake up tomorrow or I may, Lord willing. Maybe it would be the Lords way of answering my prayers about back taxes. lol Anyway you're reading your bible just fine. To understand pre trib takes a lesson in despensational theology in order to understand how the scriptures are read to show the only conclusion of placement being before the seventieth week of Daniel. Makes sense while you're in the camp but there is a whole lot of bible that makes you go hmmmm when you step away from the punch bowl. Someone from this board shared with me a section of scripture that has become my favorite for illuminating the resurrection,( the third day, clean garments.and the trumpet). Arguing does go on about which trump is the last trump and honestly I don't care, but I can show you in the scriptures what that horn blast will be like. Exodus 19 Their experience is our experience. They had a physical temple, we have a dynamic temple, a spiritual house, they had physical wars, our wars are not carnal bur spiritual, etc. In whatever way these events unfold we will meet the Lord and it will really be something. Read and think on it.

If you get a reply although I doubt that you will, I'd be interested in what he has to say.

There was a very good reason why Gnosticism was rejected, along with the way of understanding scripture through Kaballah. Study scripture and have faith in the Holy Spirit to show you the truth and don't try to find any :secret teachings".

One word alien , "SQUAWK"

Nigel so you are speaking spanish now?