Willa

I also have always thought they were the same.

Angel, I so agree. Of course we cannot trust Christians. People are in churches for various reasons. Some are honostly seaking to find out more about God. Some are there to look good for business purposes and get sales. My father in law was one of those. He concluded that the Elks lodge did him more good because he got more clients there than the Episcopal Church. A man who had gospel cards or tracts on the counter in his business was convicted of supplying a woman with poison so she could kill her husband. He was having an affair with her. We have to have off duty officers patrol our educational wing due to pedaphiles roaming the halls. A church is not a safe place. Even those who are active, genuine Christians fall on their faces. When Jesus comes back and sets up His kingdom he will rule with a rod of iron. Satan will be on hold, and yet, human nature being fallible, still people will sin. But it will be safer than it is now. We will be able to trust people a little more. Until then, it is only going to get worse. Some christians do hurt us. But I believe God allows this to tèach us more about exercising His forgiveness and love. No hurt is deeper than when it comes from people we are close to and trust. And they teach us to forgive the unforgivable just as Christ did when He prayed Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. A church is like a hospital with imperfect, injured and sick people who are in various stages of recovery.

GD, not all of us speak King James ese. Faithfulness is one of the translations for faith. I still remember the days when a person was not considered spiritual unless they could pray in King James with all the eths. Fortunately, God hears simple prayers from the heart and can even translate King James, which is something I could never do. He remains a stumbling block to my understanding the Bible.

Oh, the meat pie thing was a crazy vote for our favorite pie. We were very much being silly in this competition between berry pie lovers and meat pie lovers, and chocolate pie lovers. I was the only cheesecake pie lover but would have compromised, for the sake of Christian unity for a pecan pie. I lost. lol. We were even trying to give verses why others should vote for our favorite pie. So sorry if our humor cause others to stumble.

It means that meat that has been strangled, like a chicken, will still be full of blood if it hasn't been killed and processed so that the blood will drain out as much as possiible. This is how the Hebrew people prepared their meat while the heathen idol worshipper usually ate it blood and all and even drank blood sometimes. We are to seperate ourselves from the practices of those who worship idols.

I don't remember being part of a clique but I was on the outside a lot. Some of it was my own fault because I once was very shy. Yes, it is true. But God has helped overcome that, and now I am more interested in reaching out to people and to others that feel on the outside. It is still hard to do. I force myself to greet people and welcome them. But I remember what it felt like and don't want others to feel that way.

Pat! The face that hits the other face with a frying pan doesn't come up on my pad anymore so you didn't get it this time. I like thrillers and cop shows but had to quit watching 24 because I couldn't take the torture scenes. I can't hack the sex and nudity either, nor offensive language. So I use the parental filter to block shows with stuff like that in it. I hate to get into a show only to have to switch channels because it is offensive. Not even the family channels always have family programming. Since disney bought out the family channel it has really gone to the dogs. I wish they would allow movies to be sold that are censored. At least Turner stations have often done it. A lot of shows like Ice road truckers would be OK but I get tired of hearing the bleeps. They can just wipe out offensive words or insert an innocuous one, or even better fire the directors who insert cussing and then use bleeps. The bleeps are down right irritating. I don't care how truck drivers are more apt to talk. There was not nearly as much offensive language being used when people could be fined for talking that way, back in the 50s and early 60s. (The surpreme court started going down hill around that time.) Then if you do get good ancient sit coms they they use offensive advertising and we have no option to eliminate that. It is probably more offensive to me because I never heard bad language when I was growing up. The strongest thing my dad ever said was "for the love of Peter Rabbit."

The silent generation??? Do any of you consider me silent??? The writer shows signs of bigotry in this instance. It brings out the fight'n fundie in me.

My husband's family had been so abused by their dad that they cannot trust people. They assume that everyone is out to put them down or hurt them. Even my husband would crawl into a defensive shell when he was in physical pain or felt threatened, real or imagined. No matter what I said he would take it wrong, even when I said the right things, supportive things, from a heart of compassion and love. He would believe the worst of me and assume my intentions were hurtful. Thankfully God has healed this area of his life, but it has taken years. I did not see anyone trying to be hurtful or attacking in this thread, but I did suspect a defensive attitude. I saw people trying to give honost answers or, at worst, misunderstanding the question. Most of us are puzzled when others assume the worst of us and we honostly don't know what we did to upset them. So I ask God to give us all patience and understanding with each other. We are, after all, the family of God and the body of Christ. In many cases we are closer to each other than to our natural families. I enjoy and appreciate how different we are in our backgrounds yet how amazing it is that we are bound together by Christ in us. A mystery. Ephesians 4:1-3 NKJV I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Most of the "little things" you mentioned are what I call the traditions of the pharasees. Unless God has explicitly told you to not do those things, don't worry about them. But if you know God is reproving you for one, then you must obey. God is concerned with our hearts, such as loving and forgiving those who have wronged us or hurt us. The rest that you mentioned are pretty superficial, with the exception of lying. We are also told to refrain from filthy language. But it is the filthy heart that is more likely to hinder you. It is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks. But confession to God and asking Him to forgive and help you change will take care of that. Jesus died for all our sins and God made us His kids. We won't miss heaven for stumbling.

I remember as a new believer I would kick myself for falling; instead of asking for forgiveness and moving on, I would wallow in shame which made me ineffectual toward my family and devoid of being filled with the Spirit. God really reproved me for this. Yes we do need discipling. It is important for us to mentor new believers, both young and old. Small group Bible studies can often do this, but it is better when a friend or an older believer can do this. The Holy Spirit does it too. but most of us have to learn to recognize His voice as well.

I have heard that a few men sat at a meeting for the purpose of declaring portions of the Bible as just the opinion of men and as not of God. They essentially reduced the Bible to the Gospels and then picked through them to declare portions to be not of Christ. I will try to think of their names. Brian McLaren may have been one. I will search some more.

The case for the Trinity has been covered very well. I can only add Col 1:15-16 NKJV He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things werre created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Jesus is Creator of the universe. Genesis 1:2 And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. The Holy Spirit is Creator. Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness: Thus the Three are mentioned as Creator. Deut. 6:4 Hear O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One!" In John 8:58 Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. By claiming to be the I AM who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, He was claiming to be God. That is why the Jews took up rocks to stone Him to death in the next verse. Our God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one God and One Creator, in 3 persons. I was raised in a church that denied the trinity and had taken every mention of the word out of the hymnal. It was a very liberal Disciples of Christ (Christian) church. I finally learned the truth in a Lutheran church. The understanding of our Triune God opened up the scriptures to me to much greater understanding. Prior to that I had been convicted of sin, repented and made restitution, read the New Testament entirely, all due to the leading of the Holy Spirit when I didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. I had publicly confessed Jesus as my Savior and Lord and was baptized. But I felt so cheated that my home church denied the Trinity and refused to reveal just Who God is. They even made light of the Lord's Supper, not even using scriptures that in any way pertained to it when serving it. We were not admonished to discern the Lord's Body and Blood or to search ourselves and confess our sins before partaking. They just passed out the elements. It all seemed so empty. I never heard the Gospel preached there till a new youth pastor came. That church has died back to a dozen people from 400. It is a dead church. No surprise.

Unfortunately, not everyone who is Roman Catholic is a genuine Christian. This is also true of protestant denominations. I have met one woman who told me "I believe like you. But my husband was into voo doo and all kinds of satanic spells." Or one who had toured Europe said that people there were worshipping statues and praying to them. Another from spain told me that she worshipped a statue of Mary that did miracles. When I asked her if it wasn't in fact God who did the miracles, she was reluctant to agree... Another friend had been a Catholic most of her life but, while living in Yugoslavia, she was shocked to find that the people there were involved in ancestor worship. Personally, I could never pray to a dead person. Nor does the Bible ever say that Mary was born without sin or that she remained a virgin. Nowhere does it say she ascended into heaven or did not die. In fact, there remains in Israel a shrine at her grave. The Catholic church declared that she had not died but had ascended only about 150 years ago, I think.. Some of the things that you have lived are confined to the church as you know it in the USA. I have several Catholic friends and relatives who are born again and love God's word. Some of these are the ones who have told me of their experiences in Europe and other countries. I understand how angry you are about the false things that have been said about your church as you know it. My church has also been meligned. It is a relatively new church and is still even establishing doctrine as challanges come up.. We also have been accused falsely by other denominations. I have yet to see any of the abuses that our critiques discribe. In fact, Ron Rhodes, one of those who investigates false doctrines and abuses, has been a lecturer at the seminary our parent church founded and uses. So I recogniize that bad apples are everywhere. But it is heartbreaking to see abuses in Europe among educated people as discribed by one lady whose husband worked with Jacque Cousteau, and another from Spain. Another living in northern Italy was shocked that the worship of the Holy Family left the Holy Spirit out of the equasion in spite of the creeds.. They elevated Mary as the mother of God and the queen of heaven because many people can relate better to a woman, in the words of Mother Theresa.. The Bible does not discribe her as anything but a young humble girl who was blessed by God to be the mother of His son, conceived by the Holy Spirit. And we also honor her for her humility and courage to obey and follow God. She gave Joseph other children that were discribed as Jesus's brothers in the Bible. She did not remain a virgin. Protestants discard doctrine that disagrees with the Bible.

laws have also been passed in Sri Lanka to close churches and Buddist monks are enforcing it. I saw a video of an 80 year old lady being threatened but she would not deny her faith. There is severe persecution and jailing of pastors. Please pray for the one who visited our church since there is a warrant out for his arrest --when he returns he will be jailed. In prison they don't last too long. An indigenous pastor in Indonesia said his best friend, a pastor was pulled from his car and shot in front of his family. He kept saying that he had to forgive or his message meant nothing. He was in deep grief. This was over 10 years ago before the sunami.

If Christians were perfect and loving we wouldn't need salvation or Jesus. Jesus said He did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. Matt 9:13b NKJV We are a work in progress, being slowly transformed to be more like Jesus.

As much as I respect Jesse Pen Lewis, I don't believe a genuine Christian can be possessed by a demon. Harrassed and oppressed, yes. I don't think the Bible tells of Christians being possessed. Much of what people claim to be demon possession can be solved by simple true repentance and learning to walk in the Spirit. King Saul had the Holy Spirit come upon him at times and then an evil spirit would come upon him. But I don;t believe that he was fully committed to doing God's will. A double minded person won't receive anything from God. Saul was committed to doing his own will. He did God's will as long as it was the same as his own. I have only encountered 2 demon possessed people. One visited our church and would start shreeking every time the blood of Jesus was mentioned. Her parents explained it was because she was epileptic. I doubt it. Too weird. She was escorted out where the elders ministered to her. The second had once been a Christian of sorts but had gone back to animism and became a shaman in an Indian religion. You could see the evil in her eyes and the darkness was so heavy around her--the light in my family and my pastor (when I went to talk to him about it) reminded me of the halos they put in paintings. No wonder Christians can recognize each other whan they enter a spiritually dark land. Jesus is the Light of the world, and the darkness has not overcome it. All hail King Jesus! All hail Emmanuel. King of Kings, Lord of Lords, bright Morning Star.

People who find themselves doing what they don't want to do are living in Romans 7. The answer to the delemma is in Romans 8:1. Walk in the Spirit and obey His promptings. Keep your eyes on Jesus and be filled with thanksgiving and praise for all He has done in your life. Praise can be a type of spiritual warfare. I have even had an obscene phone caller hang up on me when I started praising and worshipping God on the phone!

The Amplified Version of Hebrews 13:5 says something to the effect of For He himself has said, I will never ever leave you nor forsake you, no not ever! It has such strong emphasis in the greek that few translations do it justice. And my God will supply your NEED according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus. Phil 4:19 NKJV But not your wants. And this was written to a people who contributed to Paul's support even though they had their own needs to consider. They gave sacrificially. Often we who have been in want are more compassionate toward others in need. God uses this to not only stretch our faith but also to enlarge our hearts.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in tresspasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:4-7 This verse just blows my mind. The word "together" occurs often just as the words "in Christ" occur so often in the first chapter. It is all about being in Christ and the amazing spiritual riches that are ours just by being in Him. "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see." What is man, that thou art mindful of him..

Matt. 4:3 the wilderness tempter refers to satan., 1 Cor 7:5,-- so that satan does not tempt you-- James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted by evil, not does He Himself tempt anyone.NKJV 1 Thess. 2:4 --but God Who tests our hearts. Psalms 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous NKJV I have heard that often the same greek word is used for both, but they decide by context which word to use to translate. ie periazo, to try, test, prove, or to tempt to sin.

I hate to even touch on this subject, but I will. First, God don't make no junk! Tongues may be the least of the gifts but it is a more perfect way to pray when we don't know how to pray. But we are told to seek the other gifts, especially prophecy, so that we may build up the body of Christ. I don't believe that the type of prophecy they refer to has much to do with fortelling the future. It is more about applying the scriptures, or the mind of Christ, to a current situation by speaking out Gods word to a congregation. If the pastor is inspired to give a sermon, he is most often the person that does this. (Sadly, today fewer pastors pray for guidance as to what to emphasize in a teaching or what to preach on.) Some churches encourage other people to use gifts during their sunday morning service. Mine does not. This is what I was taught about the subject in my baptist church. Acts 1:8 NKJV But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jeresulem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." This falling upon or coming upon is what some people call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is probably a misnomer. But its purpose is to enable us to convey the Gospel effectively as Peter did in Acts 2. It is to equip us to do God's work. Billy Graham was equipped and empowered to be an evangelist as is apparent by the fruit of his work over many years. I am not. It is true that the gifts shall cease and only love will remain when the Perfect comes. Only Jesus is perfect and God is love. But they are just as needed today as in the first century. We are not very good at doing God's work in our own strength. We need the Holy Spirit to do that. Otherwise, I pretty much agree with you. When we received Christ we were baptized into Christ, sealed, baptized into the body of Christ and we received the Holy Spirit. The "second blessing" is to empower and equip us to do God's work. Some receive this all when they receive Christ. Many do not. I have heard some people say "if you've got it all, where is it all" since there are people that have been told they have it all but they are not very effective in serving Christ. They are doing it in their own strength. I don't agree with a lot of what Prince says. The prosperity gospel seems like another gospel and Paul warns us to avoid this stuff in Galatians 1. I don't like the preaching of what I call the "bless me bunch" which is seaking after feel good experiences rather than seaking the Person of Christ. God wants us to be a blessing to others in simple obedience to His guidance; ie, walking after the Spirit. Paul talked about receiving a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble after being caught up into heaven and having unimaginable experiences that he could not discribe. 2 Cor. 12:1-7 If these people do not have this balancing factor, they usually. become boastful and proud, which is really sad. It can hinder Gods work and certainly does not accomplish it. I would encourage you to continue to surrender your life to Christ and to keep on being filled with the Holy Spirit, which you are doing. Should God want you to have other gifts, just obey Him and receive them in humility. Otherwise, be prepared for a balancing factor. Just my opinion. Hold fast to what is good. Ignore the rest.

I would vote for it if it were a chocolate icecream pie.....

I wonder how many members of the media are also community organizers

Pecan pie is neither fruit nor meat. In spirit of Christian unity, of being of one mind and of avoiding foolish controversies, perhaps we should reconsider pecan. Those who are meat lovers would not want to cause the fruits to stumble. Lets all be nuts!