inchrist

I can not buy into the conclusion of this argument that the Elders specifically mentioned in heaven means that their presence is the whole Church being in heaven. In fact when looking at the context, it is clear that the whole church is indeed NOT present. Revelation 5:8-10 shows the 24 elders acting on behalf of believers who are on earth in the tribulation. Rev 5:8-10 8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth. If you are to accept that the KJV is a newer varient on the greek text and rather submit to those who are based on older manuscripts of the Greek text then the NASB's has the correct translation of Rev 5:8-10, being, the four creatures and 24 elders are singing in third person view and are therefore detached from the group which the song is referring to - redeemed from every nation , Thus the 24 elders have excluded themselves from the whole body of the redeemed. They are therefore NOT a part of the Church. If you wish to challenge the validity of the NASB translation on older Greek text, then consider the following.... The 24 elders are not the only ones singing this song.... Its a joint choir effort with the four creatures..... are the four creatures claiming to be redeemed from every nation? What nation then has such creatures? There is a clear distinction being made here between the “saints” (who's prayers are being offered) and to those offering them (the 24 elders & 4 creatures). Therefore the saints are absent and ot present otherwise the saints would be speaking face to face with God, as do all other creatures who are already in heaven. Further if you examine Rev 4:6-11 Rev 4:6-11 6 Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. 8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!" 9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.” Notice the unison, whenever the 4 creatures give praise, the 24 elders repeat a different verse and form of praise. And they do this day and night- continously, Isaiah witnessed the continuous praise of the four creatures in Isaiah 6:2–3 Since the 24 elders are continuously reacting to the praises by the four creatures, the presence of the 24 elders in heaven is not something unique to the tribulation, but has been going on since Isaiahs day. Last two points: 1. John was not in Heaven long enough to know the 24elders and angels were praising God continuously day and not....this eliminates that it was a personal observation but rather information given to John instead. 2. The victors crown on the 24 elders can only be fitting since they are acting on behalf of the church and not being the church, a hevanly visual of who they are acting on behalf for.

Agreed and It's foretold in 1 Cor 10:11-13 11Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. there is no pretrib, this is confirmed with 1 cor 10 And this is the measure of the faith for end times and as you can see no difference with what we expect in Revelation. 1 cor 10 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters,as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. We should not test Christ,[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 (Rev 9:19) Their power was in their mouths and in their tails. For their tails had heads like snakes, with the power to injure people. And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. (rev 9:11) They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer). However the only difference is to torture in Revelation but same commonalities.

Endurance Revelation 14:12 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Where is Christ silent in the first place?

Interesting yet you subscribe to words that don't exist in the bible?

Starving Never again will they hunger; Suffering from thurst never again will they thirst. being scorched by the sun nor any scorching heat And dying ................ My turn now and try this.... Find me a single pretrib literal trumpet; a literal pretrib command of the voice; literal pretrib resurrection/rapture in scripture. In otherwords a challenge to all pretrib...for tangible literal evidence.

the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken Which you reference Joel too occurs before the sign Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

Yes which is to eternal life and as far as the facts go; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 that God has resurrected no one to eternal life as an immortal spirit yet except for Christ. God will change the righteous dead along with living of those who are in Christ to immortal beings when Christ returns. Those who were "resurrected" in Matthew 27:52-53 is in the realm of ambiguity we do not have enough information that they were raised to immortality....it is inference. I do not operate in the realm of inference....I deal with facts. And Matthew 27:52-53 to be classed in the same category as that of when Christ raised Lazarus- when Lazarus was resurrected was he ressurected to immortality? Further enlight of this we return back to But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep Fallen asleep is in the perfect tense - basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed but the results of the action are continuing on, making them still asleep. Which is qualified by Paul again when he states But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruit; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. When he comes.....and when does Christ come? 2 Timothy 4:1 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge At the 7th trumpet The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets Just as Paul prophesied 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 New International Version (NIV) 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed

And that would depend on context in it's singular form or plural form....however it is in its singular form And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy Compared to 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept 1 cor 15:20 has first fruit pointing directly to Christ Further there is no "them" in the original text of the verse 1 Cor 15:20 to determine past tense. What is in the original text is τῶν Which is a definitive article You have no past tense "them" You are relying solely on ambiguity

"Firstfruits" is singular not plural. Part of Speech: Noun Case: Nominative Gender: Feminine Number: Singular Christ is the firstfruit of those who sleep ................... You will find all of this at the 7th trumpet 2 Timothy 4:1 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:

Why not? Where does it state God will remove you from tribulation?

Sorry just a question why do you treat cosmic sign as singular?

It also states time to judge the dead.

Are you saying only pretribs are qualified teachers?

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions when did transgressions begin? further how did Noah know the law of clean and unclean animals? or how did Abraham now the law? Genesis 26:5 King James Version (KJV) 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws

You didn't really answer my question. Why would I question God's capability of saving people in the tribulation...that's not the debate. My question that I asked was why would the Holy spirit cover up the appearance of the antichrist?

Only in so far as adding priesthood. The law existed well before Mt sinai

The prophesies about Christ until John.

What other gospel was there?

Then the holy Spirit has clearly failed.... There is no biblical scripture of more than two or three witnesses the holy spirit has the function of restraining Let me put it this way; why would the Holy spirit cover up the appearance of the antichrist?

Nope; John the Baptist was a high priest and he knew full well that Christ came to be that "mastercard"

No God didnt do that all Matthew 11:13 Is about all the prophecies and laws pertaining to Christs first advent.....as you clearly know there are still plenty of prophecies that still need to be fulfilled. However what did happen was a change from the practical priesthood to the melzedech priesthood. The old testament into the new testament wasn't a dispensation, but rather a coming into maturity.

I believe the restrainer to be Satan instead. This is evident in the war with Michael. Michael is not restraining Satan....but expelling Satan. It is Satan who is trying to restrain from being expelled to prevent the following from happening 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Satan is forced to enter the antichrist hence the antichrist can be revealed. The same concept is found in Dan 10 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. It wasn't Michael doing the restraining but the evil entity instead.

7th trumpet of revelation is the only place where it is stated the time has come for the dead to be judged.... Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, Right at the time of wrath not during the time of wrath....the wrath of God begins with the bowls...hence the bowls of wrath. But where are your two witnesses at the 6th seal? The 2 witness die at the 7th trumpet.... witnessing the resurrection of the day of Lord being again at the last trumpet the 7th trumpet The day of the Lord The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Really... did all the prophets end until John?