OldCoot

Even a close look at Genesis 6 gives the same idea, only a synopsis compared to Enoch. And Jude expounds on this a little in his letter.

The neat thing is, one can very easily prove that Jehovah God (the Father) and Jesus are in fact the same person, from the JW's own authorized scripture. Both the eternal God and the Messiah that was killed and is risen. Just a few simple, to the point verses. No slight of hand, no twisting anything, no obscure meanings. God always preserves His word, even when man tries to twist it into something that it is not.

Well, I see your point. But really, once we have done the job of showing the truth of Messiah, we are essentially off the hook. It is the HS job to work on the person. I try to only spend more time with those that will reasonably dialogue. Sometimes even I get all caught up in trying to make the case. I have to remind myself that most will not accept the gospel, many of those who do, not right out of the gate.

It is amazing to live during this time!

It isn't a big news flash that Israel would be restored in unbelief. Ezekiel showed that in Chapter 37. Hosea's prophecy that Messiah would return to His place (which implies He left it, which He did) because of the rejection of national Israel and that He would only return when, in their calamity, they cry out to Him. Yeshua confirmed that prophecy Himself. It was all foretold that Israel would be regathered a second time, be a nation in one day, and initially a nation in unbelief. And also that it was a mathematical prediction as well. I don't view scripture prophetic assertions as romantic notions. I suppose some might. I feel privileged to be living in a time when I can see these type of events going on, and in rapid fire succession. I never got the impression that the church was measured in cubits, had entry gates, had food preparation areas, living chambers, had an outer court, and other stuff that Ezekiel 40 and 41 mentions regarding the future temple, after the gathering of Israel in Chapter 37. Fascinating. Maybe it was a mega church.

Yeah. Those of us that have experience with sheep have a full grasp on why God chose to call us sheep and His flock. But thanks, Steve. It is good to be reminded of this when we get all caught up in our day to day stuff.

Put that way, that is a wise statement. Well said.

We can disagree on the side issues that are debatable, but on the essentials there has to be some sort of agreement. Obviously, who Jesus is, is an essential. Whether a church has their meeting on Saturday evening or Sunday morning is not. But to some, even some of these side issues become a litmus test of whether one is heretical or not. That is carrying things too far. The adversary likes nothing more than when we are food fighting with each other and it gets to that level. It compromises our witness.

I am getting up in years and have lived thru a lot of times and political thought. Progressivism is the new catch word for Socialism, or at worse, communism. I have yet to see a socialist system really make things better. Just do a study on the roots of progressivism and it can be enlightening.

Yepper, getting up there in years also. So thankful I made it this far. Every day is precious.

That is one of the hallel Psalms. I think it applied directly to the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem. That Psalm was the prescribed Psalm for that particular day of the year, still today in Jewish circles, and it is the one the crowd was proclaiming as Jesus rode in. It is a Psalm to welcome the Lord and king. That is why the Pharisees had a fit and told Jesus to rebuke the crowds, to which Jesus replied if the crowd were to be quiet, even the stones would cry out.

I have always viewed it this way. Cremation does to a body what nature does over many years. I see no real conflict between the two. From dust we came and to dust we return. Given that it is far cheaper to do the cremation route, it seems like being a wise steward of out money if some choose that route. Other than that, the whole discussion seems like a waste of time.

Only because that is you have a preconceived idea on what the scripture says and you conveniently choose to avoid those scriptures that show that they joined together prior to the Babylonian captivity. Since we cannot seem to get off this merry go round, then we will just have to disagree. You will not be able to convince me, and scripture will not be able to convince you. Now it has become an argument of contention. Paul talked about this in Titus 3:9-11 so I bow out of this foolishness.

No, Hebrews make up both Israel and Judah. Let's see.. Jacob, the father of the all the 12 tribes, was renamed Israel by God. Israel is all the tribes. The only time there was a separation was during the time when the kingdom was divided. But since the faithful of the northern kingdom joined with the southern kingdom in 2 Chronicles, it has meant all 12 tribes. I already showed examples of NT references of a Levite and a woman from the tribe of Asher being considered Jews. Both of those tribes were not of the two tribes of the southern kingdom, but are still considered Jews. Jew does not mean only from the tribe of Judah. It was collectively applied to all Hebrews from the Babylonian captivity onward. Paul does not differentiate tribal identities. He always referred to all the tribes as Jews.

So, using your logic, then Jesus was an imposter! Only a small fraction of the Hebrews that went into captivity in Babylon returned. The majority remained in Babylon. So since "all" of Judah and Israel did not return, then they must not have really returned. That is basically what you are saying in that "all" of Israel did not join with Judah, as shown in 2 Chronicles. Look, throughout scripture, God always has a remnant. Elijah experienced that in 1 Kings 19:18. And because many did not return to the land of Israel after the captivity, the punishment of 7 times duration was applied to those that did not return. In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the number of days (representing years) that Ezekiel laid on his side at the command of God, showed the number of years the Hebrews would be punished. A total of 430 years. 70 of those were accomplished in the Babylonian captivity. But the majority did not return to the land with Ezra and Nehemiah. So the prescription of Leviticus 26 was applied to those that remained in Babylon, that a punishment of 7 times over would be applied to those who did not obey God by returning. Now, we take those remaining 360 years (left over after we subtract the 70 years from the 430 years of punishment) and multiply by 7 times. 2520 years. You apply 365 day calendar (instead of the 360 day calendar of antiquity) and you do the math from the time that the decree went from Cyrus to rebuild the temple (the remnant returned), and you come out to May 1948, when modern Israel became a nation. You apply that same time to when the decree went from Cyrus to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, and you come to June 1967, when modern Israel reclaimed all the city of Jerusalem. Scriptural application can be real eye opening sometimes.

This is a plain, untwisted reading of the holy scriptures. For other witnesses see I Thessalonians 2:14-16, Colossians 3:11, Galatians 3:26-29. There is something out today called, "the Hebrew roots of Christianity," or "Hebrew roots," this is also a heresy--that is not what is being referred to here. Being grafted in does not mean replace, supersede, etc. And the root is still there. The key word is "until". Blindness spiritually has happened to national Israel until the fulness of the gentiles be come in means until the number of gentiles that have come into the church has been reached. Then the blindness will be removed from national Israel. And this means as a nation during the tribulation period which the main focus is on the nation again as foretold in Daniel 9. There have been many Jews that have come to belief, but the nation has not. And while the church may have root in Israel by faith, that doesn't mean a nation or group of nations are now Israel. The believers that make up the church have the faith of the patriarchs and are associated with Israel, but they do not replace Israel. There are more Chinese believers than in the U.S. or Europe, have they then replaced the English speaking peoples as the true Israel? No, because neither is true, physical Israel. If I go to live in France and become a citizen, that doesn't make me a Frenchman. If a gentile comes to belief in the Messiah, he is spiritually made a child of God, and is of the faith of the patriarchs, but that doesn't make him a Jew or Israelite. Even Paul goes states that, in the church, there is no Jew, Gentile, so one can claim not identity other that Christ Himself. Romans 10:12 (NKJV) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. Paul would slap you silly for perverting what he went to great lengths to expound on in Romans 9, 10, and 11. Only a person that has a agenda could make come to the conclusion you have. You have effectively become Doublespeak out of George Orwell's 1984 or you have taken Bible interpretation into Alice In Wonderland territory. You have not grasped the idea that the church and Israel are separate entities with separate destinies. And to separate Israel from Judah is torturing the scripture also. Israel is the name given Jacob by God Himself. And Jacob is the patriarch of all the tribes. Technically, there is no Israel and Judah separate entities. And Paul recognized that throughout his writings. Paul never made them two distinct entities like you have.

Ok.. will break it down yet again..... The northern kingdom, under Jeroboam, had turned to idolatry. Jeroboam had taken the authority from the priests who lived in the northern kingdom. Remember, the priests were given cities, not land. So the priests moved south to join with Rehoboam in the southern kingdom and support him. Those, of the other tribes in the north, that remained faithful to God, also joined with the Levites in moving south and joining with the southern tribes. 2 Chronicles 11:13-17 (NKJV) And from all their territories the priests and the Levites who were in all Israel took their stand with him. 14 For the Levites left their common-lands and their possessions and came to Judah and Jerusalem, for Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them from serving as priests to the Lord. 15 Then he appointed for himself priests for the high places, for the demons, and the calf idols which he had made. 16 And after the Levites left, those from all the tribes of Israel, such as set their heart to seek the Lord God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord God of their fathers. 17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong for three years, because they walked in the way of David and Solomon for three years. Those of the northern tribes that had made this move are still shown to be living in Judah later on: 2 Chronicles 31:4-8 (NKJV) Moreover he commanded the people who dwelt in Jerusalem to contribute support for the priests and the Levites, that they might devote themselves to the Law of the Lord. 5 As soon as the commandment was circulated, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of grain and wine, oil and honey, and of all the produce of the field; and they brought in abundantly the tithe of everything. 6 And the children of Israel and Judah, who dwelt in the cities of Judah, brought the tithe of oxen and sheep; also the tithe of holy things which were consecrated to the Lord their God they laid in heaps. 7 In the third month they began laying them in heaps, and they finished in the seventh month. 8 And when Hezekiah and the leaders came and saw the heaps, they blessed the Lord and His people Israel. In Nehemiah 11, we see both Israel and Judah living in the land after the return from the Babylonian Captivity. Nehemiah 11:3-4 (NKJV) These are the heads of the province who dwelt in Jerusalem. (But in the cities of Judah everyone dwelt in his own possession in their cities—Israelites, priests, Levites, Nethinim, and descendants of Solomon's servants.) 4 Also in Jerusalem dwelt some of the children of Judah and of the children of Benjamin.

That was the purpose of having you read the references in 2 Chronicles. Those of the 10 northern tribes that remained faithful to God migrated south and joined with the southern tribes. From that point on all the tribes have been collectively called Jews, Israel, Jacob, Judah, etc. You just conveniently refuse to read that and acknowledge it.

And many posts later, and you still cannot address the 2 Chronicles passages that show that those of the 10 northern tribes migrated south to join with the southern tribes of Judah.

Yes.... Deuteronomy 7:6-8 (NKJV) “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Isaiah 41:8-9 (NKJV) But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend. 9 You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its farthest regions, And said to you, ‘You are My servant, I have chosen you and have not cast you away:

Most of what they are designed to do will be during the Great Tribulation, via the Two Witnesses and the 144,000. And while Christianity has spread the message to most of the world, it still has not spread it to all the world. Even the Bible has not been translated into every language. If you really want to get technical, an angel of God is the one who will proclaim the gospel to the whole world.... Revelation 14:6 (NKJV) Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—

Sure, while I don't actually know about WW II, I did spend a fair amount of time in college level history courses and almost the entire 1970's in the military. Spent a lot of time with those who actually did time during the big one. Actually lot of blame to go around. Britain issued the white paper that prevented many Jews from immigrating from Europe to the middle east to escape Germany's purge. That doomed millions to death in Europe. And the French have little to be proud about in this regard. The Dreyfus affair comes to mind. What is Israel today is the greatest fulfillment of prophecy that has occurred in our lifetimes. Isaiah said that they would be regathered a second time. The first regathering was after the Babylonian captivity. If you take the 430 years of punishment proclaimed by Ezekiel 4, 70 years of punishment were done in Babylon. That left 360 years. Israel remained in rebellion of God by rejecting the Messiah. Take the 360 year and multiply it by the prescription of Leviticus 26 of punishment 7 times over, and apply it to when the decree to rebuild the temple was given by Cyrus (the end of the first 70 years of punishment in the Babylonian captivity), you come out to May 1948, when the modern nation of Israel was established. If you apply it to the decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, you come out to June of 1967, when Israel reclaimed all of Jerusalem. Now one can choose to ignore it, or choose to accept it. Not my problem. But I pretty much hold that God means what He says, and says what He means. And I am in good company. One of the greatest minds of all time, who also wrote prolifically on Bible prophecy..... "About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies of the Bible and insist on a literal interpretation in the midst of much clamor and opposition." - Sir Isaac Newton.

Unfortunately, it was this sort of church or nations have replaced Israel or are the true Israel stuff that led straight to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. The Nazis used a lot to this sort of argument to justify the extermination of the "Jews". Try reading some of their literature of the time. For it to be called out with passion, stands to reason.

You need to prove that assertion from scripture. I countered it thru 2 Chronicles, for which you still have failed to address. Even after I have mentioned it in many posts. You seem to be purposefully avoiding those passages that deny your assertion. And also that Anna was from the tribe of Asher in the NT, and was still considered a Jew. The retired priest, Zechariah, in Luke 1:5 is of the tribe of Levi (descendent of Aaron). So there is two at least confirmed the NT that are not lost. The tribes were commingled in the south after those that remained faithful to God of the 10 northern tribes migrated south, following the Levites. That was predicted in 1 Kings and came to fruition is 2 Chronicles. From that point on, all the tribes were collectively called Israel or Judah, even in the New Testament as evidenced in Rev 7:4.... the 144,000 are selected from the 12 tribes of ISRAEL. John knew that all the tribes were collective. Many of the other writers of the NT considered them a collective. The writer of Hebrews and James for sure. Yes, God will take those of Israel from among the nations and bring them back. Isaiah said that Israel would be regathered a second time. That in no way supports that the nations are those Jews, only that the Jewish people would be gathered back from which they were scattered. I may scatter sunflower seeds in a corn field, but that doesn't mean the corn is now sunflowers when I gather the crop. Many of your scripture choices to substantiate your position, nothing can be derived from those texts that they apply as you say. You are forcing an interpretation on those passages that is no where to be found in scripture and are just the imagining of man. And to even imply that the U.S. is part of this really is stretching things to the breaking point. It is only a interpretation that can only come from a biased, presupposed position.

I think it both applies to Judaizing in general, but also the idea that the theology that has the church is now Israel, that those who claim to be Jews, and are, have been replaced by the church. That kind of theology led straight thru to the gas chambers at Auschwitz.