GandalfTheWise

I've been an analyst professionally so I've conducted surveys and analyzed numbers before. One challenge in this study is that no distinction is made about whether divorces occur before or after conversion. The study also alludes to numbers showing atheists are more likely to cohabit and not marry which means that it is difficult to directly compare the numbers. Anecdotally, I think the divorce numbers among serious evangelicals are probably lower than indicated, but still way too high. A few months ago, we had a small reunion in another state at our old church. It was a small church, and after about 25 years, about half a dozen couples got together for the first time we'd seen each other in ages. As the men were sitting at the table, I realized that we had 6 of us there that had each been married for over 30 years, had kept regular jobs, raised our families, and to put it bluntly, just hung in there doing the right thing for decades. Frankly, I felt very good to be included in such a group of Godly men. In hindsight, as we caught up on news and other people, there were very few divorces over the past 25 years among our old circles of friends. There were a couple people who'd gotten caught up in similar situations to what the OP describes of one partner just leaving, but those seemed to be the exceptions. It's easy to point the finger at individuals and simply say it's sin. But, as a deeper question, the marriages that ended in divorce really didn't seem any different than those of us still together. Going back 25 years ago, I'd have never guessed which ones would have ended in divorce. These weren't people that were on the fringes of church. From what I could tell, someone didn't wake up one morning and suddenly decide to leave. This was something that had taken root and started growing over time. I wonder what could have been done earlier to help prevent these things. The question I have is how do we as Christians help support each other to keep our marriages strong and healthy? I'm convinced God's plan and desire is for strong healthy marriages and not just merely avoiding divorce.

To have childlike trust, confidence, and faith in our Father is part of our calling as Christians. However, to exclusively think like a child (or to not think at all) is an entirely different matter. I have never met a Christian that did not apply some type of interpretation and explanation to particular verses and passages in scripture as to why or why not they don't apply today. For example, Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. Exodus 35:3 AV. I don't know any Christians who believe those of us who live in Wisconsin should turn off our furnaces every sabbath day during the winter because it's a sin to have them on. I don't know any Christians who refuse to start their automobiles on the sabbath because that would be starting a fire (via the gas burning in the engine). We look at this verse and say it applied only to the Israelites and not us. Many Christians take Exodus 20:13 ("Thou shalt not kill.") and interpret it to mean "except in self-defense or as capital punishment or in a just cause in warfare" or point out that it most likely should have been translated as "Thou shalt not murder." The reality is that we all apply interpretation to some degree in order to discern what indeed is what is pleasing to God. I choose to take this very seriously and study as diligently as possible so as to do it with as much discernment and wisdom as possible to determine what is pleasing to God. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. II Tim 2:15 AV When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. I Cor 13:7 AV For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:12-14 AV

This is a topic that I have many more questions than I do answers. For me, the deepest question is how closely is marriage (as we practice it in the 21st century U.S.) related to marriage as practiced in 1st century Israel or 1st century Corinth? To some extent, marriage in the 1st century was somewhat akin to a business relationship between two families where the marriage was arranged. To some extent, this was a commitment placed upon the couple by their families. It is interesting that many of Paul's comments about marriage (in I Cor 7) are then followed by comments reflecting some people's condition of being a slave or free before resuming more comments on marriage. This suggests to me that to some extent Paul had in mind the idea of people being subject to arranged marriages in addition to our idea of marriage as being purely voluntary for love. In the Gospels, Jesus was speaking to people who were subject to the law of Moses. I think any interpretation and application of these scriptures should provide some insights as to the similarities to 1st century marriage (to some extent arranged) and 21st century marriage (primarily for "love") as well as the differences. If the church today took Jesus' and Paul's comments on marriage as seriously as we claim to, many more Christians might remain single and never consider being married or might even consider getting separated so as to focus more totally on service to God. But in reality, we tend to gloss over the recommendation that being single is better and most of us get married and live a married life. For me there is the letter of the law which appears to be quite clear about marriage being for life with no remarriage allowed. However, there is also for me the nagging question of what is the spirit of this law intended to be with marriage as we have implemented it today? And what is God's intended penalty to be for those who break it? To be honest, I am torn. A part of me is that we are doing ourselves in the church a disservice by cheapening marriage to be a thing of convenience and not appropriately honoring those who've been married to decades to our first spouse. (A friend who is a pastor who conducted my oldest daughter's wedding noted to me that her wedding was somewhat rare in that both sets of parents and all sets of grandparents were all still on their first marriage. Happily this was true for my second daughter's marriage as well.) A part of me also does not want to be a pharisee with rock in hand when Jesus says "whoever is without sin cast the first stone." The balancing act between legalism (here are the rules to mindlessly follow because I am a good pharisee) and license (God forgives everything) to walk in Christian liberty as well as follow God's leading for particular life situations can be a challenging one.

I'll pass on the words I once heard from someone who went through a lot. I once had the privilege of spending some time at a retreat in a small group with an old (in his late 70s or 80s) missionary. Over his life, his work in Africa (in the 1930s and 40s) and later Europe resulted in thousands of new churches being started. As a child, he and his sibling had a single mother. She had reached the point of having no money and no means of supporting them anymore and had decided to put the kids into an orphanage. He remembers being dressed in their best clothes, the car arriving to pick them up, and his mother deciding at the last moment that somehow, no matter what it took, God would get them through it, and decided to keep the children with her. Before he and his wife left for the mission field, they lost their first child, in their arms by the side of the road where the car they were in had broken down on the way to a hospital. Reflecting back on this, he said he decided that he was not going to hell over a mystery. He said he could have blamed God and become angry, but he decided to trust that there was a bigger picture he could not see. He and his wife spent many years alone out in the bush and jungle of Africa enduring a lot of physical hardships. Years later, he became a mentor and leader to many young pastors and missionaries. When they were going through struggles, he'd encourage them with "just hang in there." One thing he said that stuck with me was this. The greater the trials and problems you are going through, it is likely the greater the things that God is preparing you to do.

30 some years ago, I had the privilege of being able to spend some time in a small group of campus ministers with a man in his late 70s or early 80s who had spent most of his life in Africa as a missionary. He told stories of the miracles He had seen over a couple decades in the mission field. He struck me as a credible man of integrity that was not prone to exaggeration or lying. Frankly, it was book of Acts type of stuff. This was not somebody who spent his time speaking in stadiums or to large groups but spent many years out in the bush and jungle where missionaries had never been before. He then spent the later years of his life as a mentor and leader for younger missionaries and pastors. He was a popular preacher and in demand as a speaker when he was older, but I had the sense he much preferred being in smaller groups. He wasn't describing miracles for the sake of miracles and glory, but rather people dying of incurable diseases being healed, a man (who later became the first pastor to his tribe) in an unreached tribe seeing a vision telling him to go find the white man they were all afraid of and hiding from, and things like that. Again, 30 years ago so my memory is a bit hazy on details, but I'm relating the general tone of things correctly. In my mind, arguing about whether or not people like this are missionaries, or apostles vs Apostles, or whatever we argue about what to call them, is secondary to God actually calling and sending people out with the gospel and confirming it with His sovereign hand on them.

I think one of our first steps in any such situation is take things to God. Then He can give guidance as to what to do in terms of reconciliation, confession, and restitution. Sometimes the other person may need some space and reconciliation may take some time. I don't think we are to put our relationship with God on hold. For example, let's take something like child abuse. Say some parent did this for years and ended up estranged from their child. The parent becomes a Christian years later. In my opinion, such a person should seriously seek out God's guidance for what to do to apologize (and in a way that puts no pressure on the child). In such a situation, the child might not want to interact with the parent for months or years or ever. Reconciliation might not be possible for a long time. I doubt that God's intent is that the parent cannot approach God until reconciliation is complete.

I think God's means of drawing us to Him are quite varied. Over the years, I've heard many testimonies from people that give a wide range of reasons why they first started looking for God and found Him. Some people hit rock bottom in life due to addiction or other things and cried out for help. Other people simply responded the first time they heard the gospel message. I think that key to all of the testimonies is that being drawn to God eventually resulted in a change in life. Many people talk about how they became aware of God's presence inside of them as a result of this process. The word draw in John 6:44 (ἑλκύω) is also used in John 12:32, 18:10, 21:6, 21:11, Acts 16:19, 21:30, and James 2:6. It seems to be a fairly strong word more akin to drag or haul or attract rather than the more subtle entice or invite. However, I am hesitant to pull out this verse completely on its own absent of context. John 6:44 should be understood in the context of the rest of the passage. Jesus was speaking to those who had been fed via a miracle and wanted to make Jesus King by force. They followed Him across the lake and found Him. In my opinion, Jesus was differentiating between those who were flocking to Him for the signs, novelty, seeing Him as a conquering Messiah who would overthrow the Romans, and a promise of bread from heaven, but who had no real interest in Him (beyond improving their lot in life) and those who God was drawing to Him to be spiritually changed. The end of this passage shows the net result that many who He was speaking those words to and had been following Him quit doing so. The whole idea of God's drawing someone seems to be related to Him pulling them out of a concern for the physical world and into a concern for the spiritual world. Speaking for myself, the state of my spiritual walk is less related to answered prayers than it is to the simple consistent spiritual disciplines of prayer, meditation, bible study, and being with other Christians. For me, prayer is more about talking with God, getting direction for the day, and enjoying being in His presence rather than asking for things. One of the things I try to remember to consider is whether or not I am asking for the right things. I know one woman who had for years been praying for a husband, and then following a sudden insight from God, realized that she should have been praying and working toward being a better person who would be a better marriage partner themselves. As she related it, God had been trying to get me ready to be a good wife for the man of my dreams and I wasn't listening to Him. I was a mixed up mess who was not ready to get married and I thought marriage would solve my problems.

About 5 to 10 years into my Christian walk, when I was in college (30 odd years ago), I felt that this too was my calling in life. I was quite good at it. Fortunately, God called a halt to my madness through Keith Green's testimony about how he had been mislead as to the role of a NT prophet. I realized I was being little better than the teachers of the law that Jesus condemned for heaping rules and laws on people's heads but not lifting one finger to help them. I was forced to face the fact that I loved my opinion about Truth more than I loved people. I was more concerned with pointing out problems than I was in dedicating myself to helping people overcome them. The bottom line was I had deluded myself that my opinions about what the Bible said were mostly correct and that anyone who disagreed was believing a lie. I was spending my efforts and time trying to make sure people agreed with me in a misguided belief that having the right opinion about every possible biblical and doctrinal question was more important than growing spiritually. I had mistaken zeal and sincerity for spiritual maturity. In hindsight, I was very much a young fool; albeit a sincere and zealous and honest one. I've seen much more spiritual fruit born in my life after I matured and actually became a person from whom the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, etc.) became the hallmark of how I interacted with people rather than being a know-it-all teacher of the law or pharisee who though he had it all together.

I'd have to go with John. It seemed like he was in a unique supporting role when people needed him. He was one of the three, very close to Jesus, his gospel records much more of Jesus' prayer in the Garden (suggesting perhaps that he was awake longer than the others), probably the only disciple at the cross, first disciple to the tomb, entrusted by Jesus to take care of Mary, seemed to always be along with Peter when many important things were happening. The gospels and epistles in the Johannine tradition are elegant in their simplicity and depth of spiritual insight.

My wife and I made a quick road trip to Columbia, MO to see totality. This worked out to be a real blessing. We called around and found a hotel room the day before. Didn't hit any traffic driving down (and we stayed until Tuesday so no traffic leaving). Found a nice city park with a vacant grassy field on top of a hill a few blocks walk from the hotel. It was pushing 100 degree heat index on Monday so stayed in the AC until it was ready to start. We walked up to the hill and found we were the only ones up there. We just put out our blanket in the shade under a tree and enjoyed it. We had some eclipse glasses and brought along a cheap set of binoculars to project the image onto a piece of tagboard. We tracked the eclipse as it got darker. Then in the last 5 to 10 minutes before totality, the birds were singing and it seemed like twilight. We put on our glasses and watched the last bit of light. We took off the glasses and looked around at the 360 degree sunset/sunrise colors in all directions. A thunderstorm has just gone past in the north so we had both clear skies to see the sunset/sunrise colors as well as clouds with the colors. I then looked up and was able to see the halo of the sun around the moon. It was an amazing sight. We had a bit of high cloud cover so the moon wasn't totally dark. We had about 2 and a half minutes to enjoy it. The temperature also dropped to a cool level and felt comfortable. My wife took a quick 40 second video with her phone of a 360 degree view around us. I'll probably get that online at some point. As it ended and the sun came back out, it was then we realized how dark it had gotten. Some streetlights had turned on. We both thought it was incredible. We're now planning on a big family trip for the next one. 100% totality is an amazing experience. Anything less is cool to see, but actually being in the zone that gets complete coverage creates a few minute experience where the environment around you just changes. For us, it was well worth the 14 to 15 total hours of driving. It was also a nice relaxing road trip for just the two of us.

I'm new myself here on this forum. FWIW, I've been a Christian for upwards of 40 years now. Here's the advice I'd have given myself 40 years ago about walking with God if I could have. 1. You are a unique creation of God meant to reflect His glory in a unique way. There are things you will have in common with all other Christians, but there are some things that will be unique to you. 2. Figure out how you (in your uniqueness) are meant to walk with God. I know some people that have been on the same Bible reading and prayer schedule for decades and been greatly blessed by it. Speaking for myself, I go through definite seasons of my life where one things flows naturally for a time, I grow, I'm blessed by it, and it goes great. But then that season ends and I need to move on to the next one. I once went through a season of reading the Bible through once per month for about 4 or 5 months. On the 5th time through, the one month reading plan slowly fizzled into a 6 month plan and ended up dying out before I finished. I've had seasons of regularly getting up for a few hours of prayer and meditation every morning. After about 6 months, I was simply forcing myself to do it and falling asleep and daydreaming. It took me many years to learn that God made me in a way where I have definite ebbs and flows in my spiritual life where one particular spiritual discipline (e.g. bible reading, prayer, meditation, study, whatever) comes to the forefront for awhile. I've learned to ride the waves so to speak. 3. The Christian life is about being a Christian more than it is about doing things. I spent the first 3 decades of my Christian walk completely worried about my "calling" and what God wanted me to be doing. It's only been the last decade that I've spent more focus on "being" a Christian rather than worrying about a giant spiritual to-do list. I walked in a bondage of always being worried about measuring up to God's standards for ministry and bearing fruit and being found worthy of His calling on my life. About 10 years ago, I finally understood that the big things God had put onto my heart when I was young were not goals or a calling, but rather promises that He would bring about as I walked with Him and grew. Hang in there. I won't say "God's got a great plan for your life, if only you are a good enough Christian", but rather "God's created you to be a unique person meant to walk with Him in a way unique to you. He will show Himself to the world through you in a unique way. Learn to walk with Him. He's a patient and loving Guide and Teacher Who wants to spend time with you and mold you into a unique work of art and treasure."

Note that at the last supper, when Jesus told his disciples that one of them would betray him, they all asked if they were the one. Other than Judas who had already made plans to do so, the rest simply had doubts and worries. It's common for Christians to have feelings of doubt of various types at various times. When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. And while they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.” They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, Lord?” (Matt 26:20-22 NIV) Faith in God is something that grows over time. As we walk with Him daily and see His hand in our lives over months and years, our trust simply grows. Speaking for myself, I found that it was the consistent presence of God in my life over time that really made the biggest different in my outlook on things. This doesn't mean there weren't ups and downs. There were. But it's that the general trend was upwards and onwards over the years. Consistent spiritual disciplines (like bible reading, prayer, meditation, or getting together with other Christians) are what really help us grow. It's sort of like planting a garden. There will be weeds and pests to worry about that spring up at various times. But as long as it is tended and watered and cared for, it will grow and yield a crop.