listener24

The current state of the world is not what God wanted from the beginning. There has been the fall, as we learn from Genesis, and since then a lot of things are not as from God's original design. "The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.”" (from luke 4) "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. " (from 1 John) This is so important to understand, otherwise we attribute to the Father traits that he doesn't have, by inferring them from "the ways of the world", something that is not part of His original design, but that He is only "letting happen" after our own choice. After understanding this crucial point, then we can ask ourselves better what did the Father suggest to us. As long as we are in the world, but not from the world, the Father suggested us to basically help others and spread the Gospel. Historical, political and economical scenarios change, but our mission doesn't change. By keep digging into His Word, (especially the 4 Gospels, the words that Jesus Himself spoke), and praying the Spirit, we can find guidance on how to better conduct our mission and save our souls from a fallen reality which tries to poison us with dreams of "power" and "pride". This way, with our mission, while helping saving souls we are eagerly awaiting and hastening (2Peter 3:12) the Return of the King, our actual ultimate Hope. God bless you

Dear Littlelamb, I think it would be easier if, as I've done with you, you can quote point by point of what I say and either agree or try to refute. If I wasn't clear feel free to ask clarifications. Otherwise if we answer each other with "streams" of "mixed" thoughts it would be harder to outline all the concepts discussed. You say: " absolutely are we to pray ‘Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done ..” but it changes not the fact that God does not change" This sentence ignore what I've just answered. It's not enough to just repeat "it changes not", otherwise I would just repeat "it indeed change" and we could continue forever without increasing the number of aspects outlined. Instead if you think the points I've presented in the previous answer are wrong, can you please show me where they are wrong? Thanks for your patience God bless you I will report them here again: 1) The fact that "no one knows the Day but only the Father" doesn't by any mean contradict our role in speeding it up. This because God's foreknowledge by any means implies that God doesn't listen to our prayers and or that He doesn't take into account our prayers when He operates. Instead He both knew everything and He decided everything taking into account our choices and our prayers as well. For instance, can you pray for someone's healing? Would you ever say to someone praying for someone healing "stop praying, it's useless, only God knows that day in which that person will heal. God doesn't change His mind". You would never say that, simply because it is both true that: 1) the Lord knows that day when someone will get healed 2) the prayer may influence that day, if it's according to God's will to listen to that prayer Otherwise Jesus would have never said "ask and you will receive". He would say "don't ask since the Lord knows the time of every event", according to the logic you are presenting here, but He didn't say that because the topic of foreknowledge is ultimately unrelated. 2) Furthermore, even if it's the case that the Lord is waiting "a certain number of people", when we spread the Gospel we are actually hastening the period in which that certain number of period will be reached! So we do indeed have an active role, and it's quite a responsibility! Now why should our active role be true for outreaching and not for prayers? 3) Finally, many Christian all over history have interpreted the Lord prayer primarily as a prayer for His Second Coming, and 2Peter says exactly that we can "speed up" that Day. I think 2 Peter is right in its claim. 4) Therefore, as point 1,2,3 confirms, Jesus suggestion about "no one knows the day", just means: "don't believe those who predict a specific day. They are false prophets". Indeed many of such false prophets came. Many tried to "predict", but our role is much more exciting than "predicting". Our role is to speed it up! Thy Kingdom come! Deliver us from the evil one Lord Maranatha

Interesting point of view Littlelamb, thanks for sharing it! It is true that we don't "change the Lord" by hastening the day of the Lord. The Scripture you quoted, taken in context, just means that we can be sure that the attributes of the Lord such as mercy, forgiveness, righteousness, love etc. do not change. The points you presented have been discussed here in the previous pages with some other users, and I'll wrap them up for you: 1) The fact that "no one knows the Day but only the Father" doesn't by any mean contradict our role in speeding it up. This because God's foreknowledge by any means implies that God doesn't listen to our prayers and or that He doesn't take into account our prayers when He operates. Instead He both knew everything and He decided everything taking into account our choices and our prayers as well. For instance, can you pray for someone's healing? Would you ever say to someone praying for someone healing "stop praying, it's useless, only God knows that day in which that person will heal. God doesn't change His mind". You would never say that, simply because it is both true that: 1) the Lord knows that day when someone will get healed 2) the prayer may influence that day, if it's according to God's will to listen to that prayer Otherwise Jesus would have never said "ask and you will receive". He would say "don't ask since the Lord knows the time of every event", according to the logic you are presenting here, but He didn't say that because the topic of foreknowledge is ultimately unrelated. 2) Furthermore, even if it's the case that the Lord is waiting "a certain number of people", when we spread the Gospel we are actually hastening the period in which that certain number of period will be reached! So we do indeed have an active role, and it's quite a responsibility! Now why should our active role be true for outreaching and not for prayers? 3) Finally, many Christian all over history have interpreted the Lord prayer primarily as a prayer for His Second Coming, and 2Peter says exactly that we can "speed up" that Day. I think 2 Peter is right in its claim. 4) Therefore, as point 1,2,3 confirms, Jesus suggestion about "no one knows the day", just means: "don't believe those who predict a specific day. They are false prophets". Indeed many of such false prophets came. Many tried to "predict", but our role is much more exciting than "predicting". Our role is to speed it up! I hope you will see these just as kind suggestions and hints to think about the ideas, nothing personal, on the contrary I appreciate your posts. If you don't agree with this line of refutation, please address my answers point by point. If you instead agree, join in the cry of the Bride who is eagerly awaiting and speeding up her Bridegroom's Return! “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’” 6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Thank you for sharing @turtletwo Will be in Spirit with you and the Worthy Family while counting time for the new year. This forum was also a great blessing to me, I'm grateful for everybody here. I also praise the Lord for showing me in person several Churches in line with His Word and where people love one another. And I praise Him that He never let His sheep to be snatched from His hand as I've experienced. "27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one." Happy new year in Christ!

Great question. For me it was enough to read the 4 Gospels by myself. Nobody has ever spoke like Jesus and I realized He is real and He is God. He also filled me with His Spirit in that day I read the Gospel by myself and believed In the span of few days, people started noticing a change in me

Hi @MyLordsServant! I don't have a strong opinion on this yet. Do you have an hypothesis that you find more convincing than others? Thanks!

I am curious too. Some of them say that they hear the audible voice of God and they are wrong. Some others mean it softly I think. Anyway, I think it' s a wrong and abused way to express ourselves. God can make us understand things through His Word, our siblings quoting and living His Word and the application of His Word to circumstances of life, but usually people who say "God told me" think that God communicate with them through their emotions or whatever voice in their head. So I would avoid using that expression and beware of it.

This comet was discovered 70 years ago (interesting year) and is at its closest in centuries and among the closest comet in 70 years. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/12/15/science/green-comet-46p-wirtanen.amp.html Merry Christmas!

Sister, did you get the chance to study and pray about the subject? What do you think?

Your post is great and full of great points. I would like to remark this particular point that I'm quoting from you, which seems to be usually very "underrated" or unknown or forgotten. In the same way in which Adam and Eve bow down their knee to Satan and surrendered to his dominion, we can do the reverse, opposite thing. We can declare to God that we are tired of the situation, and we want Him to come back and be the King of everything forever. We can also declare that we want to be delivered forever from the presence of the evil one. "Your Kingdom come [...] Deliver us from the evil one" As you pointed out in your post, it is important that we pray for it. "And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?"

This is a very interesting point of view. The fact they may have been made mortal to alleviate their suffering is food for thought I will keep an open mind on the whole subject, there will be a lot of surprises on the Day God will reveal His full glory

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24) "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom." Luke 12:32 Maranatha!

This is brilliant Dennis. And it is not that "off topic", it really explains a lot of things. There has been a long gap, between the first Christians understanding many more things from the Gospel and praying the Lord to Return, and the "Christians" who just took political power and betrayed the Word for the world. All of this was forecasted by Jesus, who left us the description of everything that would have happened, in His fights with the Pharisees. Every words by which He accused the pharisees has perfect relevance in Christianity, starting from "you shut the doors of the Kingdom of Heaven in people faces". Unfortunately, with so many errors accumulated, even Protestant reform wasn' t enough. There were still a lot of things to be purified. Moreover, sometimes even in Protestantism several errors and confusions accumulated, so we should be always on guard, and learn every day from Jesus words. To reconnect with the OT, with all of these damages happened, with so much division caused for political reasons, there is still a cry that can rise from the remnants in every denomination, all the true lovers of the Lord: Maranatha! Come quickly Lord!

This is an amazing post. Many Catholics think they are right because they trust their leaders and they think that their leaders are the "true descendants" of the apostles. Many Protestants think they are right just for being protestant, by mentioning some principles like "Sola Scriptura", but often without really being faithful to those principles, and by usually trusting human "teachers" in the same way Catholics do. Yet Jesus didn't teach to use any "title", as you said. And the reason why, is that specific "titles" comes from having "human masters", and Jesus was clear about them: "But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah." Matthew 23 It is really dangerous to just call ourselves "catholic", "protestant", "born again", etc. and by the usage of these names think that we are right or saved. Jesus knows that we are capable of much more. He knows that we are capable of having Him as our only Master and Father, and spread the good novel of the Kingdom in its simplicity and powerfulness, without need to create fancy titles to attribute to some "human masters" and this way creating a lot of "denominations" based on some "dogmas" that some "human teacher" create.

This is another great question dear @Yowm You show to greatly understand the point, which is important regardless your disagreement. A simple answer is that we really don't know the timeline and we don't need to know it. Even if it seems slow to us, it would have been even slower without spreading the Gospel and the prayer for His Return. Another thing to consider is this. The first Christians, were aware of this prayer, it was natural to them. They were greeting each other with the word Maranatha, come quickly Jesus. You can find this even in other early Christian writings, like the Didache. Then what happened? Christianity corrupted itself by merging with Rome, and instead of looking "above" they started looking down and thinking that the Kingdom of Heaven was something to "build" on earth. There aren't many traces of this prayer, after this terrible event, for centuries and centuries. Theology started talking about irrelevant issues. Then in the recent times, there seems to be an awakening, at least for some remnants. You can read several pastors today talking about this topic, included Adrian Rogers, Jon Courson or Derek Prince. And these are the time in which the last piece missing can come true: "And this Gospel of the Kingsom will be preached in the whole world, as a testimony to all nations. And then the end will come" These are the time in which from all over the world, "the Spirit and the Bride" can shout "come" (Revelation 22:17) Sure, if humanity would have been more receptive God would have likely fixed an even earlier timeline. Instead from the 3rd century we turned our sights to our idols, for the most. But we can do our part today In the worst case, it is at least a prayer that helps us keeping our eyes fixed on our blessed hope. It is also great to prevent issues like preterism and social Gospel and prosperity Gospel But I think it is noy only that, but even more powerful

I respect your point of view and kindly disagree I think there are enough arguments in what we have written and on my side writing more will be redundant, but if I change my mind I'll add details. Seems like the choice is between some very clear (at least in my opinion) verses and words like the verb "hastening" in 2Peter 3:12, or like Luke 18:1-8 (which would be completely useless if it wasn't also in part our responsibility), Versus some specific interpretations of a book, Revelation, that have been interpreted differently by almost everybody who reads it, and on which respectable Christians have several different angles of interpretation, not compatible between each others. I guess for you is much more straightforward Revelation, and you believe you have a quite clear idea of the events that need to happen and that you have found the right key to interpret pages about lions, monsters, dozens of very precise and rounded numbers (like 1000, 144000, etc.), and I respect that. God bless

Good point, except, we have no certain interpretation on those. I think there are at least 100 people writing regularly on this forum, and maybe 99 different views on the subject of the events that need to happen before the Day of the Lord. Should I trust one of them, and miss my opportunity to speed His coming? And all of this, after Jesus has been very clear in the Gospel and hasn't complicated anything? I'll rather be simple, I don't understand those complex interpretations, let alone the whole pre/pri/post/past trib topics on which there are several hundred ramifications (is the antiChrist European? African? American? Canadian? Is the beast Rome? Bablyon? Etc. etc.) I'll leave all of these question to the wise and learned, who seem to have hard time to agree, and I'll rather bother God like an old widow was bothering a certain judge, in a certain city, with a more concrete request: deliver us from the evil one!

While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’ 14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’ 15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Luke 19

❤️ 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

Great question, thank you! We know from Scripture that we can hasten the day of the Lord, speed up His coming: 2 Peter 3:12 "Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming." Therefore, the answer to the question "quicker with respect to what?" is "quicker with respect to when it would have been fixed by God if some of His elects wouldn't have hastened it." Therefore, whoever doesn't hasten the Day of the Lord, slows it down, by missing his opportunity to speed it up. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now a comment not referred to you @Yowm, but to whomever would read this with lacking some elementary basics of theology. I want to specify that God foreknowledge doesn't by any mean decrease our role in speeding up His coming. If someone really wants to try to disprove 2Peter 3:12 with some elementary theological errors, and he doesn't trust the Scriptures alone, then and only in that case such person should maybe read about what Boethius said about foreknowledge and free will. This only if someone wants to dig in complex reasoning, which has actually nothing to do with the simplicity of the Scriptures which states that as always, in the History of salvation, God wants men to cooperate with Him. That with our stubborness we can slow down His plan (see God's people in the desert), or with our repentance and cooperation we can speed it up. Again, your question @Yowm was excellent, by specifying what I just said here above I'd like to prevent some boring and misleading conversations (like people contradicting themselves by saying that we play "no role" on the Day of the Lord because God knew the future and the day is fixed, but then according to them we have absolutely a role in speed up for instance the healing of a disease with a prayer. Such people are able to contradict themselves in the same sentence, so I'm trying to prevent this to happening).

Amen! Maranatha! Come quickly, Lord!

@turtletwo @SelahSong @PromisesPromises! Amen! ❤️ Maranatha

Imagine there is a person on a desert Island, who doesn't know anything about God. You can send him only one book from the Bible. (picking any book from Genesis to Revelation) Which one do you choose? Why? And if you can choose 2 books, which ones? ------------------------------------- (if this question seems completely "abstract" to you, remember that people time is limited, and sometimes it's hard to catch people attention in this super busy world for even an hour per week, therefore sometimes suggesting a reading it's like reaching people on a desert island)

Thank you @SelahSong , @Adstar , @Eliptic01 , @pinacled for your great answers. Thank you @PromisesPromises! for the great considerations! I'll address this last one that you posted. @PromisesPromises!: "Can we hasten the time?" Answer from 2 Peter 3:12: "Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming." (speed up or hastening depending on the translation) Also, remember that many times God's people slowed down His plan with their stubbornness/worldliness. Remember the Israelites in the desert, when they didn't trust God and they had to wait 40 years. If they had trust Him, they'd have let Him hastening His timeline. All over the Old Testament and the New Testament, our God is a God who wants a cooperation with humanity. He could do everything by Himself but He chooses not to, He wants our participation, as it is explained in parables like the Lost Son (Luke 15:11-32). In that parable, the Father doesn't force his will on the son, but as long as the son doesn't repent and is happy to be in a foreign land ("my Kingdom is not of this world"), without him, he lets him do it. He doesn't force His will on him. So as long as we, even the Christians, keep focusing on this earth and we focus all our prayers on this earth (like the pagans have been doing for thousand years till now), we are not praying in the Spirit of Luke 18:1-8, the Lord prayer, or Revelation 22:17 and 22:20, and we are actually slowing down God's plan, by not hastening our sound "response" to His desire of giving us New Heavens and New Earth. Sounds very similar to what happens in the Parable of the Wedding Banquet as well, doesn't it? (Matthew 22:1-13). In that Parable, the King says "everything is now ready", but people come back to their business or their family plans. If these are not enough Scriptural sources, let me know, and I will provide others as well as the opinion of some "preachers" on this like Adrian Rogers, Darek Prince or Jon Courson.

Luke 18:1-8 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’ 4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’” 6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” Now the question is: what are the chosen ones praying day and night for? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hypothesis 1: "they are praying for a more just political system" Refutation: Most of the prayers of some Christians seems to be going in this direction. Is this what the parable is teaching to pray for? If it was, it would have been much clearer if it concluded as "when the Son of Man will fix the political system, will He find faith on earth?" But this is not how the parable ends. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hypothesis 2: "they are praying for a prosperous life on earth, like Job after the temptations" Refutation: If it was the case, the parable would have concluded as "when the Son of man will give people an abundant life on earth, will He find faith on earth?" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hypothesis 3: "they are praying for the Son of Man to come quicker" Confirmation: well that's exactly what the conclusion of the Parable seems to teach. Moreover, this seems completely in line with the only prayer taught directly by Jesus, the Lord prayer, plus various verses (Revelation 22:17, 22:20, 2Peter 3:12). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interestingly enough, the choice of a "widow" can also be seen as a reference to the Bride of Christ, whose Bridegroom has been taken away, Scripturally: "Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast." (Matthew 9:15) "Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it." (Luke 17:22) Thanks for reading. Feel free to share your considerations/agreements/disagreements/Scriptures on the topic. God bless. Maranatha