Joulre2abba

Jesus didn't say 'on the last day', Martha did. But reading Jesus response it's clear that he didn't say 'on the last day'. What Jesus said in Jn.11 is what Paul taught in Thes.4. There is no 'on the last day' in his text. Oops first you said that there's a resurrection and a rapture then you said there was no rapture. By honoring the words of Jesus and Paul, the reasonable statement should be that since the resurrection happens first then it logically, theologically follows that there is a rapture that occurs after it.

The collapse of Mount Saint Helens is an example. It's called a mountain but it was actually a volcano. The eruption of volcanoes are clearly due to earthquakes. Mountains collapse due to erosion, sometimes caused by earthquakes but not always. Volcanoes in the process of their destruction also create new land as demonstrated in the recent event at La Palma around 4 months ago. Mountains collapsing due to the resurrection of dead people has not ever occurred, so the idea is merely religious in concept. Your use of the word 'probably' gives it away as being a notion that sounds appealing to the religious minded who'd be susceptible to such fanciful thinking however there's no biblical verse that relates to or connects them. The raising of all the righteous from before Noah's flood has already occurred when Jesus was raised from the dead, so were all the righteous dead up to that point. Including such as Simeon who died sometime shortly after seeing Jesus as a baby.. and Joseph the husband of Mary and foster father of Jesus.. and likewise the thief on the cross who asked to be taken to paradise at his death. They and many more were all the cloud of witnesses who accompanied Jesus when he ascended to heaven. The moving of the axis of the earth that occurred in the earthquake/tsunami of 2012, and.. the earthquake/tsunami in 2004 both resulted in shortening the hours of every day since those events. The earth itself moves incrementally all of the time.. the blocks of earth rub up against others and put pressure on larger seemingly unmovable blocks and thereby create a tightening of a spring so to speak that eventually gives way with different degrees of force in a seismic event. The almost constant recordings of many earthquakes happening around the world each day will eventually become a part of the single event of the great earthquake recorded in the book of Revelations. What John saw was singularly the greatest earthquake out of all others. John wrote according to theme rather than straight sequence because there was so much to write about concerning the various events that he saw. What he referred to in one chapter for thematic reasons would also be mentioned in another chapter to highlight a different theme. Such as the event of Armageddon in Rev.16.. that is also recorded and known as the Second Coming of Christ in Rev.19.

Harpazo is in the KJV translated "caught up". The Latin word "rapturo" means the same thing.. The Latin Bible translating from the Greek. Your argument could also be applied to the English translation because English is not as precise as the Greek either. The excuse of the Greek being more precise than the Latin is dodging the issue of where anyone gets the word 'rapture' from. Such a dodge comes from those who don't believe in any rapture event at all.. saying.. "It's not in the Bible, therefore the doctrine is false." When you use your argument, you are demonstrating that you are not being precise in your objection, nor do you know where, or care to say where it comes from. You have simply generalized a popular excuse that is a common debate fallacy. But if you want to hang onto your faulty tidbit that you can only repeat over and over, that is your prerogative.

"It's a bastardization of a Latin idea and it's simply not in the Koine Greek." A. Insufficient and inaccurate response. The Greek "harpazo" = to snatch or take away.. is translated in the KJV 1 Thes.4:17 as "caught up". The Latin translation of the Greek is "rapturo" from which we get the word "rapture". All of those words are sufficient to equally describe a Jewish moed - Rosh Hashana., ie Feast of Trumpets event of the body of Christ being collectively taken up by the Bridegroom Jesus Christ.

Your response post doesn't have any Bible topic in it but rather commentary ranting. I prefer to using my posting window time focusing on an actual Bible topic.

You can believe that if you want to but your statement is merely an invalid opinion and fabricated cherry picking denials of men against the testimonial scriptures from the old testament prophets and the new testament apostles. Jesus returns from heaven with all saints who got there by death & resurrection plus all saints who were alive at the time of the rapture that the apostle Paul wrote of. If you don't believe in a Millennial Kingdom then what was Jesus referring to when he taught all believers to pray to the Father.. "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."? That is a rhetorical question because God's Kingdom is the future of mankind on the earth. The Millennium is the thousand years verses in Revelation speak of. It is the time given to Jesus who is God's man to rule it. The dream of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel prophesies of and depicts it. The Millennial kingdom occurs after Jesus returns which the OT prophesies and NT apostle John wrote of. The Millennial kingdom is a part of "The Day Of The Lord" as is the GWTJ and New Heaven and New Earth. BTW.. with God's plan there is no end. The new earth being the mirror of the Genesis garden of Eden before sin and thereby be perpetual days of heaven on earth to all people naturally born during the Millennium and beyond.. ever after void of the devil and free of sin and it's consequences.

Yes, the group resurrections are - 1- those resurrected with Jesus. 2- those resurrected from the church age. 3- those resurrected from the 7 year Tribulation. 4- all sinners who ever lived. There are also the single resurrections and raptures from the OT & NT - 1- Enoch, rapture 2- the prophet Elijah, rapture 3- Moses, rez&rap 4- the two witnesses of Revelation, rez&rap (mid-Trib)

Isa.12:2 “Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; For the LORD GOD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation.” (also in Ps.118:14)

The answer is within the phrase you mentioned in your question or do you really want everyone to know how you could miss the obvious by me answering more plainly?

That is all identifiable as Post-Trib doctrine that erroneously applies to NT Christians what Jesus specifically told the Jews of the OT what would occur to Jews who still hold to the OT, and all of the unsaved alive on the earth during the seven year Tribulation. The Jews know what "the day of the Lord" is better than the posttribbers do.. for they (the p.t.r's) erroneously call the posttrib rapture t.d.o.t.l. because they read into that phrase the particular words that aren't there. So to them it means "the specific day of the Lord's return to earth" which means a rapture that lifts them to the clouds to meet with the Lord as he comes. They erroneously say that the bema seat judgement of the church-age believers happens in the clouds, and they erroneously add that Jesus sits on a throne in those clouds to judge all believers.. thus they ignore all references of activities by believers in heaven. But the Bible says that Jesus sits next to God in heaven where all saints at death/resurrection&rapture reside.. attend the bema seat judgement, eat the supper of the Lamb then wait until the Father tells Jesus to leave heaven and return to earth. The Bible is originally to the Jews, and by the Jews so all verses must be viewed from that perspective. The day of the Lord begins with the rapture of the church-age body of Christ (a.k.a. the Jewish feast of trumpets and resurrection of the dead), with the bride of Christ taken out of the earth by the groom unto elopement in heaven.. that allows the lawless one to come and by him is begun the 7 year Tribulation a.k.a. the 70th week of Daniel a.k.a. the time of Jacob's trouble. During that time the focus is on the Jews, not any Gentile believers that all and only they are saved after the pre-Trib rapture because they heard the gospel then saw the pre-trib rapture glorious church rise up to the clouds until out of sight as they continue on to heaven. Likewise in the return of Jesus.. he is said to descend from the clouds.. that is a literal statement from the view of anyone on the earth who can't get a spiritual sight to see him coming from somewhere out in space where heaven is. The postribbers misinterpret "the thief in the night" to be the Lord who comes for them because they are going to be looking for Him to come for them at the end of the Tribulation. While in every verse that speaks of t.t.i.t.n. cautions against it happening for anyone. The postribbers are the victims of their own incorrectly merged eschatology that makes the Lord a thief instead of the bridegroom. They misunderstand the timing of His coming to be just once at the end of the Tribulation and so ignoring all scripture references that clearly speak of TWO comings... the first as the groom for the bride, the second as the ruler who makes war with the nations. The postribbers believe that they will remain alive for His second coming even though the text in Revelation states that all believers are persecuted but they will not love their lives and so willingly submit to martyrdom. So.. irrespective of the text the postribbers put a special interpretation way of escaping death upon them while they accuse the pretribbers of using their rapture event as merely an escapism doctrine. Continuing with the Jewish meaning of the day of the Lord phrase... it also encompasses The Millennium and The Great Throne Judgement, and The New Heavens And Earth. These are included in the prophetic dream of Nebuchanezzar that ends in the statue of the nations being broken to bits and the ashes scattered by the winds then the great mountain of God's kingdom covers the earth. The post-Trib rapture doctrine due to its eisegesis has many flaws in it while the pre-Trib doctrine uses exegesis to align with the truth of the scriptures.

An occasion that is like lightening does not mean that there will be literal light involved. But lightening cannot be determined beforehand where or when it will occur. In the rapture of the Church, Jesus will not come as a thief. A thief is an unexpected robber. Read Revelation about the church at Sardis. To them he comes like a thief because they are not prepared. Let us not associate ourselves with them. But the Church-Bride of Christ expects Jesus to come for us. He is our Blessed Hope. Another word for hope is joyous expectation. We just don't know exactly when he will come. So it will be like lightening.

According to a rightly divided eschatology.. At the resurrection-ascension of Jesus all of the old testament and gospel saints who died were resurrected-ascended with Christ because they believed in a Messiah/Savior to come. All those believers alive from the day of resurrection of Jesus and Pentecost onwards include we at this present time are all of the church age who will be pre-Trib resurrection-raptured. Those saints to be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation do reign with Christ along with all pre-Trib resurrected-raptured old and new testament church age saints who reign with Christ during the Millennium. All others resurrected are those who ever lived and died in sin who are judged and condemned.

I know what you meant, but by your words of attempting to clarify.. you have not actually given a difference but in two sentences have merely repeated the exact same words. The pre-trib rapture term does mean that it happens before the 7 year tribulation. There is no partial gathering of saints of pre-trib rapture but all from the church age - what we now are in - are raptured at that future time. The beginning of the Tribulation is the end of the church age. But the post-trib doctrine states that Christians will be on the earth during the Tribulation. When they say "Christians" they mean those of the church age. They believe that because they mistakenly apply text concerning the Jews and the Tribulation saints to the church age Christians. The lack of use of terms by others of different doctrine have caused the confusion.. either in ignorance or on purpose to make the pre-trib doctrine to seem exegetically illogical. The post-tribbers apply their merging of events style of thinking that they use in their post-trib doctrine as they report what they think are errors of the pre-trib doctrine. However the pre-Trib doctrine rightly divides the eschatological verses while the post-Trib doctrine does not.

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has delivered us from the law of sin and death therefore there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit to walk in newness of life by the glory of the Father. (Rom.8:2,1; 6:4)

That is exactly right. There is no resemblance because there isn't supposed to be. But the post-Trib doctrine mistakenly merges what Jesus said to a Jewish audience living still by the OT laws & promises with the mystery revelations that Paul said to the NT Gentile Christian Church that did not exist when Jesus was on the earth. So the post-Trib doctrine erroneously has the NT believers on the earth all during the seven year Tribulation. While the pre-Trib doctrine rightly has the NT believers in heaven all during the seven year Tribulation. Paul said that the man of sin (the anti-christ) cannot be revealed until "he which restrains is taken out". The reference is to the NT believers being raptured out.. not of the Holy Spirit leaving because He's still needed for many others left on earth to be saved. The saints mentioned in Revelation that are on the earth during the Tribulation are only those who've gotten saved after the pre-Trib rapture occurred. Paul said the phrase twice (2 Thes.2:6,7) so that noone will misunderstand it but still the post-Trib holders do. They believe that the antichrist will be on the earth at the same time that the Church of the age of grace will be. Even though the Tribulation is the end of the age of grace.. and so the church of that age- as Paul wrote of- must not be on the earth during the Tribulation. (1 Thes.5:9) Also - - The pre-Trib doctrine does not have part of believers raptured at one time and another part later. The pre-Trib doctrine wouldn't be a pre-trib doctrine if it had part raptured later. The pre-Trib is a topic of eschatology which includes what's mentioned in the book of Revelation.. in that regard pre-Trib doctrine believers recognize that other raptures (Rev.12:5) occur during the Tribulation.. however that does not make such occurrence an inclusion of the pre-Trib rapture doctrine as you have stated it in a merged fashion.. it just makes it an eschatological mid-Trib rapture. The pre-Trib doctrine does not say that there is resurrection at the seventh trump, the post-Trib doctrine does. Apparently you are unconsciously giving your doctrine while trying to reference the pre-Trib doctrine. The bema seat occurs in heaven after all NT believers (Rom.14:10) have been raptured or there by martyrdom out of the Tribulation. It is different than the Great White Throne Judgement in that it only involves the Believers.. and all are rewarded, only their wrong works are burned up... no believer is judged in sin and sent to hell. Mat.13:47 is only referring to Rev.20:11-15 The Great White Throne Judgement. They are judged for their sins and sent to hell (Mat.7:15-23)

The scriptures tell us that we have fellowship with the triune godhead but we are to pray to our heavenly Father in making our requests to him using the name of Jesus.

Those who were speaking in tongues were not each speaking in different human languages at the same time.. what a chaos that would be.. who could possibly distinguish between their language and someone else's at a time like that? God would not be the author of such a thing. Rather, the verse says that each HEARD their own language. So, no.. the scriptures do not refer to speaking in tongues as foreign languages.

That is concerning "they" who are saved through believing in Jesus Christ. But I (being saved for several decades) was addressing what you first said, that we who are already Christians "don't have sufficient faith in His promises".. In my previous post I said: "Perhaps we aren't having sufficient faith in His promises because we don't know how to. Perhaps you could tell us how." In your response post you gave the theological history of Jesus sacrifice that payed for all the promises to be available to us. I know about that. I didn't ask for that. When you said that we don't have sufficient faith in His promises.. you specifically cited Isa.53:4-5 which addresses our spirit, our soul, and our body. I asked that you tell us how to get that sufficient faith, because obviously just knowing that Jesus paid for all that we would have need of by his crucifixion, hasn't made us all be healthy in our spirits, our souls or our bodies. Is there any among us who have "grown up to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ"? No, none of use could claim that as true. To be told that we don't have sufficient faith with there not yet being given a remedy of getting sufficient faith leaves us all with a problem.. So, again, I ask.. if you know the answer, could you tell us how to have sufficient faith in His promises in the areas mentioned in Isa.53:4-5?

Yes, the various different nationals heard words in their own language. No, they didn't hear the gospel, they heard words of praise unto God, (Acts 2:11). If the gift of tongues were upon those who heard, as you describe it, then it should have been written that it was the gift of hearing, but that would be contradictory with the text which states that the 120 were speaking by the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say that anyone was hearing by the Holy Spirit.

Addressing our spirit- "He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities" Addressing our soul- "The chastisement of our peace was upon Him' Addressing our body- "And by His stripes we are healed" Perhaps we aren't having sufficient faith in His promises because we don't know how to. Perhaps you could tell us how.

Since the divine healing was a particular move of God at the time, I wouldn't call it a 'problem'. However during the move of God in the Azusa Street Revival of 1906 that was specifically concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.. and the thousands of Christian churches who stayed away and preached against it.. I would call that a 'problem'. Likewise all other revivals in America (the 60's, 80's) that involved the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the speaking in tongues.

That is a general statement so I have to decide what you might mean by that and answer accordingly. If you're referring to literally everyone not being healed by God then you are making an argument against God not performing healing to everyone.. assuming that he ought to just because he's God who heals. But in Exod.15:26 God said in Hebrew "I am your Jehovah Rapha." In English "I am the God that healeth thee." Who is 'thee'? Those who have covenant with Him. So God has put laws and rules concerning his word. He heals by covenant rights. He heals by the faith of those who hear. The scriptures say that God sent his word and healed them. God's word is health and medicine to all flesh of those who find and eat or receive it. When Jesus ministered healing of a woman he called her daughter, meaning that she's a descendant of Abraham and recipient of the covenant blessings. There's a scripture that says that healing is the children's bread. Christians are joint heirs with the old testament and gospel saints, we are children and descendants of Abraham through Jesus Christ. So healing is our bread too. But if you think that God will/should heal without rules or laws and just heal everyone regardless .. then God ought to according to your assumptions just make everyone saved. The scripture tells us that it's His desire that all be saved. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. So would you explain why God doesn't save everyone?

There is Mat.8:17 (quoting the Isa.53 text) that clearly indicates that the Bible is speaking of physical healing of physical sickness. Mark 2:1-16 is the context for verse 17. Verses 1-12 is a physical healing. In Isa.53 the verses address sins and also peace for the soul and then the physical for health. God is concerned with our entire being made whole.

Charlie744: 1) Metal Man Image - everyone is familiar with this colorful and interesting image. It has gold, silver, bronze and then iron representing the four kingdoms of man's rule beginning with Babylon. a) Why is there no boot or foot covering? No man walks without shoes and no army walks without strong coverings or boots over their feet. No one would go into battle without boots. Certainly the Roman army would wear metal / leather boots..... 1) I don't think this might have anything to do with the "Stone" hurling down at the feet destroying the entire image - clearly, God destroys all the metals and a metal / leather covering over the feet would not change the outcome. --- The feet of clay and iron are no different than the legs of iron, the loins and abdomen of brass, the arms and chest of silver and head of gold. There are no coverings over any of the combined image. If it had shoes then no one could see that the feet were of clay and iron. It's not about what clothes it should have on or if clothes were indicated in the metals. It's about the metals themselves that degrade with each following metal that finally results in iron unmixed or un-unified with clay and what they represent and/or mean. The gold head was told in representing King Nebuchadnezzer of Babylon and his empire. So the following metals each represent the succeeding kings of a different nation and empire. The arms indicate Medio-Persia. The torso represents the rule of Alexander the Great. The legs indicate the twin kingdoms that existed throughout all of the Roman rule. The feet represent the transition and the toes represent the culminated 10 kingdoms that are an unmixable conglomeration of the harshness of iron and crumbly consistency of clay. The ten toes can be compared to the elite of ancient Egypt and their harshly subjugated slaves. Look at things happening in the world today and determine if there's any indication of governments heading in that direction. Whatever degree there may be at present it still hasn't been completely manifested because there isn't yet one ruler to rule over the ten rulers.. the one ultimate ruler who subdues three of the ten. I have my own speculations concerning the lack of unity in the EU and the recent "Brexit", and the talk of others to also make their exit. One has occurred. And if my speculations are right, then two more will yet happen. France looks like the next to exit. But it's a race with another so they're nose to nose to see who exits first between the two. Then something (the rapture of the church), a major shift will happen that brings the antichrist into the spotlight. And he'll re-gather the three as his personal conquests which enlarges his horn. The remaining seven rulers are lesser in only ruling over each their one domain. The stone or rock that hits the feet of iron and clay is Jesus arriving in his Second Coming. He defeats the antichrist and his army. Then sets up his Messianic thousand year reign. His kingdom shall be forever and not be superseded by any other kingdom of man or the devil who is defeated forever.

Looking again at the text.. Revelation 22: 18-19 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. I see your distinction that you provided however you immediately negate that to say that it would also apply to the entire Bible, that would be a significant stretch if not an error since the entire Bible was compiled together centuries after each book was written. There have been words added or taken away during the process of translating any particular verse (I can think of 3), two in particular that has changed the meaning of the original author. And there have been those who've hinted that the curses of Rev.22 come upon someone who doctrinally disagrees with someone else. So there have been abuses of one sort or another. But the curses and plagues of Rev.22 would only be actually applied to those whom the apostle John intended concerning the book of Revelation.. and wouldn't apply to anyone who has abused the text in any of the other books of the Bible because not all of them are written in the manner that John received.. directly from the appeared and risen Savior. Not even old testament prophecies have such a curse upon them. Nor do Paul's or Peter's prophecies within each of their respective epistles. Nor does any of Jesus prophecies that he spoke during his earthly ministry.