Who me

Strange how so many devout Jews have died by violence over the years and equally strange that somany faithfull Christians have and are dying because of violence done to them by armed opponents. Either this verse is nonsense or it does not mean what you are twisting it to mean.

As the title says,there are so many views that there are no satisfactory explanations.

Accept God only forgive when there is repentance. That is seen through out the Bible. From your reply you would push the grieving parents to say they forgive. All you are doing is looking at the verse that say we must forgive. You don't look or try to understand what the Bible says about repentance or see how that challenges your understanding.

It is important that forgiveness should not be made a demand. If there is no repentance forgiveness is there choice.

Basic human biology. At conception the male sperm X or Y determin whether the fertilised egg is male or female. So those who say sexuality is a choice do not know what they are talking about.

The 10 commandments say simple ' Do not steal.' There are many forms of theft, like stealing time from an employer by wasting time, pens, paperclips, paper, phone or computor time. I read Duncan Campbell biograph, about the 1950's isle of Lewes revival. He was at a theological school and he and the other students were convicted of sin. The sin of theft. There crime, they would take a short cut through the kitchen and would help temselves to a biscuit from the tin. They rightly identidied this as stealing. My point, what do you or I routinely do that violates Gods Holiness.

Jesus asked his Father to forgive them. He did not forgive them. God only forgives us when we repent and that is the pattern found through out the bible. read the two parables Jesus taught that I quoted. No where have I said that one holds on two the bitterness, anger, resentment etc etc that follows being hurt. I have repeated said that we follow Jesus example when he was on the cross of handing the situation, the hurt, anger, etc etc over to God. I'll ask again. A parent has lost their child and are greiving. Is it right that that parent should be asked to forgive a hit and run car driver or should they be counselled to hand the situation over to God. Which is the more compassionate course of action?

Please reread my misspelt 2nd to last line.

It is very simple. There is no satisfactory explanation for what will precede Jesus's return. Best idea is to follow K.I.S.S. and believe he is coming again and live in the light of that knowledge. All ideas about his coming will turn out to be wrong and once he is here we will not care about all the explanations that tried to say what would happen.

It power comes from our knowledge that God has saved us not from political and military enemies but from our sin. From our knowledge of how God has saved us. Wesley put it best, 'Our God contracted to a span, incomprehesible made man.' and 'Emptied Himself of all but love, And bled for Adam's helpless race; 'Tis mercy all, immense and free; For, O my God, it found out me. ' The extent of Gods love for us is beyond our ability to comprehend, it is enough to simple know the length that he went for us.

One cannot know what to say if one hasn't done the work of learning what God wants one to say. The promise is that the Spirit will bring to your remembrance. Not that he will give you knowledge you don't have. Yes I am aware there is the gift of knowledge etc, but bing a lazy ignorant disobedient Christian is no way to ensure that God willdo anything to help you. Put the work in reading, studing the bible, attending churh making notes of biblical expository preaching so you obey Romans 12:1+2. getting bible biased brains.

As BB has said, those who claim the law, that is the 10 commandments are finished are deluding themselves. How many Christians here worship another god? How many Christians here take the name of God in vain? How many Christians here have images of there god? How many Christians here abuse their day of worship? How many Christians here are abusive of their families How many Christians are murders, Adulters, liars, consumed with envy or are thieves. As Paul said those who unknowingly keep the law will be judged by it. As Christians we obey the law not becauise we have to, but as a sign of our love for the lawgiver. I could have shortened this by saying those who dispise the law dispise its giver.

Rules by limiting our available courses of action actually bring freedom. Rules protect us and others from the consquences of our or others actions. I might want to run that red light because of....... obedience keeps me and others safe. Rules are a burden, whether societies rules or Gods laws we willingly submit to them. As Christians we obey Gods laws, yes the 10 commandments because we Love him, we obey societies rules as a consquence of our obedience to God. Note the order, we obey God first and as part of that obedience follow societies rules. We do not obey society when it is against God.

As you say they are placing their standards on God instead of the other way round. But then these same people don't accept Gods love to them in salvation because they are not prepared to humble themselves and say sorry to God.

How individuals react is entyrely up to them, but Christians are commanded to imitate God/Jesus, there forgiveness is ONLY given when there is repentance. You say there is no condition, if the requirement is to repent then there is a condition. Look at MKatt 5:23+24 when about to offer a sacrifice, if one realises there is a disagrement etc between one and another. That sacrifice is to be left at the alter an one is to journey to find that person and be reconciled. That means someone has to say sorry. Matt18:21-35 the unjust servant. He repented before the king and was forgiven. His debtor repented but because he would not forgive, he was judged. The theam runs right through the bible, we repent/say sorry/make amends call it what you like then as Christians we must forgive. What is interesting is you do not take up the problem of a severly hurt person who is being told to forgive the offended, even though they have not had time to come to terms with their hurt. No where have I implied that by not forgiving an offender, that one has to hang on to feelings of hurt, anger, resentment etc. By saying that is the alternative you show you do not understand the topic of forgiveness.

Both of those examples are where the offended party asks God to deal with the offenders. They ask God to forgive, but God only forgives when there is repentance, we do not know whether they were forgiven or not. You talk of love, yet show no consideration for those who have suffered real harm at the hands of unknown attackers. By demanding that people who have been seriously hurt automaticly forgive their attackers you cause real harm to those who haven't had time to come to terms with their injuries. The biblical procedure is to rebuke/inform the person who has cauised harm, if they say sorry to forgive them. If they do not recognise they have cause harm to take it to the elders for them to talk to the offender and for the elders to apply church discipline, if that results in repentance to forgive. You are saying no matter what happens one must forgive, despite the fact that God does not do that. In seeking to be loving you are potentual very cruel.

We are saved because we repented and are forgiven. As Christians we are to forgive as God forgave us. Do you agree with me so far? But we are only forgiven because we repented. God does not forgive those who have not repented. You are saying that we must do what God does not do. How is that to imitate God? Where you are confused is we have to be willing to forgive, if there is repentance then we MUST forgive.

Do you have an idea of just how Christians should be an example, or do you consider it enough to give a vague call to be an example?

"Now, there was a little statistic tucked away towards the end of the article that’s worth noting. The report states that evangelical Christians have declined as a share of the US population as a whole, from 28% to 25% of the US population. But, when “looking only at Americans who identify as Protestants – rather than at the public as a whole – the share of all Protestants who are born-again or evangelical is at least as high today as it was in 2009” (emphases theirs). What this demonstrates is that the drop in Christianity noted in the article (a decline of 12%) is mostly not evangelical, Bible-believing Christianity, it’s the mainline Protestant denominations that largely do not preach biblical authority and the gospel anyway. So, while cultural Christianity is declining, the number of those who hold to the gospel is remaining steady. And that’s encouraging!" from Ken Hams latest blog @ AiG. Yes we need to remain true, but are our churches/preacher remaing true to what the bible teaches. One only has to look at the Christian hostility to Ken Ham to see how many are not true to what the bible teaches.

All relationship take effort, time, and commitment. How much are we prepared to commit?

The problem is really two problems. A reluctance of preachers to teach biblical morality and to back it up with the secular scientific facts that show that God knew what he is doing. 2nd, the willingmess of christians, both men and women to believe the lies that secular society teach. Here is a link to just one article talking about the stats involving happiness in marriage:- https://winteryknight.com/2019/10/30/new-study-virgins-have-happiest-marriages-more-sex-partners-means-more-unhappiness-2/

Have you read the context? 17 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.” 5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” 6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you. 7 “Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? 8 Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? 9 Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’” Please bare two things in mind. 1/ God only forgives us when we repented and we are supose to follow Gods example. 2/ The whole OT sacrifical system taught that one only obtained forgiveness when one repented. It is not possible to stand holding a lamb that one is going to kill to obtain forgiveness without acknowleging that one is a sinner in need of forgiveness. Jesus and the disciples taught the importance of forgiveness in the knowledge that there has to be repentance. Then and only then Must we forgive. If there is no repentance, like Jesus on the cross we commit the offender, the situation and our feelings over to God for him to deal with.

This is the creation of Wisdom. The question is who is wisdom? Is it Jesus!

If you read Luke 17:3-4, you will see forgiveness conditional on there being repentance. Then and only then we must forgive.

Try reading Romans 12:20 which tells us to do good to/for those who hate us. One doesn't have to forgive them, just pray for them.