Alive

Not exactly, dh. My intention was to convey how our pet doctrines can and do often tend to be grossly over emphasized. I don't know you well enough to make that assertion. Its kind of a 'if the shoe fits wear it' thing.

Maybe--my head hurts. LOL My head hurts from trying to read through the entire thread. Short version: I lost a bunch of typing. I assume the Lord wanted me use Scottish brevity. LOL I think that we humans think too much and wrest too much from scriptures to bolster our ‘doctrine of the day’. There are good points made by well meaning individuals throughout this thread on the various sides of this. I think that the arguments should be relegated to those areas of less importance. The less important file is huge and the more important small in comparison. I mean that literally. The important things can be rendered down to just a few. Those things important and related to our experience of the Lord and Fellowship. Far more often than not, the huge file gets in the way of the small one. These are my opinions. As far as the ‘fulness’ of this and that. IMO—those things are simple, but can be made complicated very easily, just as is most anything in scripture and that Man touches in general. We tend to have ‘busy minds’ and are not content to leave the wonderful simplicity of Life alone. IMO. 22 And He aput all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as bhead over all things to the church, 23 which is His abody, the bfullness of Him who cfills dall in all. I think the Church has two aspects. One from God’s perspective and another from our perspective. The above line from Ephesians is God’s perspective. Notice the present tense. The church IS His body, the fullness of Him who fills all and all. Read that a few times. The Church IS now the completeness. It can't get anymore complete than the completeness of Him Who fills all and all. 'Our' perspective is the walking out of ‘Christ in us” where each member of the church throughout the age is contributing to the whole as each of us is ‘changed from one degree’ conforming to that bit of Christ as the Lord wills and has predestined in each member. Each member—no matter how lowly in men’s eyes—but wonderfully majestic in God’s eyes. Why? Because this is a matter of Life. Life is Life. Man looks with eyes of how much of this or that. God cares only of the Source. He took care of that ‘In Christ’ who is the Church—the fullness. We—each member contributing—is growing up into that which already is. God is tricky like that. He can do things like make a thing before it happens. Done in one realm while the other realm catches up. I am having a bit of fun with this—that is obvious. But we can see the truth of it. As far as dispensations and covenants and arguments of the same. That goes in the huge file. Grace, Mercy, Love and the Life that we have been given which encompasses those three ‘small file’ items. We can have ever busy minds that crank along on this and that or a quiet mind that allows the Spirit space to breathe and teach. And yes—there is a difference. Mental seeking and study and understanding have their place, but just as sex—a natural thing, can take up far too much space beyond its intent, so can the active mind when touching the things of God. A tell tale sign that a pet doctrine of the season has grown grotesquely, is when it effaces or occludes the Love, Grace and Mercy that are the fruits of the Life we share….many members and one Body.

Maybe--my head hurts. LOL

Oh well--I just typed a long response and somehow lost it. :-)

The Lord was very clear about what the field was.

What field are you referring to, dh?

Just a few scriptures where Israel and forever are mentioned. Ex. 31:17 “aIt is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; bfor in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.” Josh. 4:7 then you shall say to them, ‘Because the awaters of the Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of the LORD; when it crossed the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan were cut off.’ So these stones shall become a bmemorial to the sons of Israel forever.” 1Sam. 13:13 Samuel said to Saul, “aYou have acted foolishly; byou have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you, for now the LORD would have established your kingdom 1over Israel cforever. 1Kings 9:5 then aI will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, just as I 1promised to your father David, saying, ‘2You shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’ 1Kings 10:9 “aBlessed be the LORD your God who delighted in you to set you on the throne of Israel; bbecause the LORD loved Israel forever, therefore He made you king, cto do justice and righteousness.” 1Chr. 22:10 ‘aHe shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.’ 1Chr. 28:4 “Yet, the LORD, the God of Israel, achose me from all the house of my father to be king over Israel bforever. For cHe has chosen Judah to be a leader; and din the house of Judah, my father’s house, and among the sons of my father He took pleasure in me to make me king over all Israel. 2Chr. 13:5 “Do you not know that athe LORD God of Israel gave the rule over Israel forever to David 1and his sons by ba covenant of salt? Ezra 3:11 aThey sang, praising and giving thanks to the LORD, saying, “bFor He is good, for His lovingkindness is upon Israel forever.” And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the LORD because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid. Ezek. 43:7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My athrone and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will bdwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the 1ccorpses of their kings 2when they die, And a bonus verse or two: Is. 60:21 “Then all your apeople will be righteous; They will bpossess the land forever, The branch of 1My planting, The cwork of My hands, That I may be dglorified. Heb. 11:9 By faith he lived as an alien in athe land of promise, as in a foreign land, bdwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, cfellow heirs of the same promise;

We are the most special elite people that have ever lived! Saints! Called out and separated for a purpose!

Honestly--I think you are whacked in the head. I have no idea how you have come to think this way, but it just isn't true. I have been around believers from all across the spectrum and this country and have never once met a single individual; who meets this portrayal of yours---quite the opposite, in fact. It matters not one whit that you develop a construct to make your point--if it simply is not true. I pray that folks reading your nonsense, see it for what it is. Hatefulness. The very hatefulness you ascribe unjustly and in error toward others.

Amen, Ad. Amen.

Hmmmmm? I'm not sure the meaning behind the difference you cite between the faithful and the saints. I do not agree with the RCC's ideas of saints. The saints of God are the called out ones--believers. Those that are 'In Christ' by the Father. Some are more faithful to what God reveals to an individual--than others. Such is always the case. Variability is inevitable. I agree wholeheartedly and by experience in the 'pulpit' thing. This is something the Lord showed back when I was at Bible School 40 years back after I had left off being a pastor and leaving the organized church. Please understand--I don't criticize those brethren in organized churches. I took the course I was convinced the Lord set for myself. I mourn at 'division' and the strength of that sense grew over the years and culminated in a dream the Lord sent. I saw a field and in that field there were lots of dead bodies that were in pieces laying all over the field. In the dream while looking at this a word came into my mind. I didn't know the word and haven't since, but the sense of the word was things like atrocity, abomination, horror, disgust. A word that meant these things and more. It was very powerful. I woke up like a shot and said, "Lord, what the heck was that". He said. "that is how I feel when I see my Body divided". This left a wound of sorts and the result can be imagined.

Mike--this is a very good and honest question. The Lord will help you with this, but I hope that the following will be of some help. What I have seen in my own life and walk over time is that as I have come to truly 'know' how badly that I 'need' forgiveness, which comes from a long honest look at my own shortcomings and sin. Not an intellectual assent to this, but rather an experiential one. As we stand before our Lord 'naked' and 'transparent'--He does a work in us. We stand and receive His abundant Grace and this tends to change us and we find that it is easier to let that Grace and forgiveness flow through us toward others. Words don't do justice to the Truth of Life, but I hope the Spirit makes this alive to you, because without His light, words are only words.

I see you are a philosophy student. I am familiar with these things myself, but I think what we see is not so dramatic as all that. It does help at times to frame a position, but the vast majority of folks simply don't think this deeply. More often than not folks are driven by simple things--like a need to feel 'special'. This is the nature of 'factions'. 'We are all special, but because of my pet doctrine, I just happen to be 'more special' than you". Just basic old fashioned carnality. Now the men that dream up these things and ride them like a gravy train? That is another kettle of fish altogether. Tongue firmly in cheek. Have you read Kennedy's 'Torch of the Testimony'---its a very good read.

A common term that refers to a sphere where Christianity has had some influence.

Two things. apparently many lack a solid foundation forums attract some from the edges.

Wow! well...I joined because I wanted to know what folks in Christendom were thinking.

I was just having this discussion with my believer neighbor an hour ago. I recall a time when I was very much involved in thinking about this stuff. I found that at a certain point, it CAN become a distraction. Some is good--maybe some more is not so much. In the final analysis, the Lord knows and He did say that He would come at a time that we think not--and that after describing all the signs to watch for. We that are His and still alive during those days, will know well what is happening. The Lord is perfectly capable of making things clear to us. I repeat--I am waiting to hear a trumpet and loud shout. "Come hither". :-)

It is so easy to pick this apart, but I won't do that. Several have attempted to get you to at least slow your roll a we bit, but to no avail. I have a question instead. Where and how did the germ of this doctrine of yours first present itself to you? How did you come to believe what you believe?

Yes----"Adam, what were you thinking"

I love Romans 8! Thanks DH. I hope you didn't mind my using your citing of Amos as a jump point for my last post.

1. The entire history of Israel/Jews was the Lord giving second chances 2. Your logic when invoking the NT record being required to validate an understanding of the OT record is flawed because 'rightly dividing' the word in that light allows for even more subjectivity and your interpretations make that abundantly clear. 3. You say His rule is over all so that means He doesn't need to also have a throne on the earth. That is a flat out a logical error. We are going to have to agree to disagree...the Lord knows and we all will one day. Amos 9:14 “Also I will arestore the 1captivity of My people Israel, And they will brebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also cplant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 “I will also plant them on their land, And athey will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them,” Says the LORD your God. This from the Expositor's Bible Commentary 14-15 The period when this abundance will be manifested will witness the restoration of Israel to her land. Ruined cities will be rebuilt (v.14), and Israel will again flourish as a nation. Amos saw this restoration as being permanent. He said that Israel would be planted in her own land “never again to be uprooted” (v.15). It is difficult to understand his words as finding fulfillment in the postexilic period. Not only were the economic conditions of that time not consonant with Amos’s prediction, but its impermanency makes the identification doubly difficult. Other OT prophets used somewhat similar language to describe this period. Like Amos, they associated the abundance of blessing with the Davidic King (Isa 9:2-7; 11:1-9; Mic 4:1-5; 5:2-5). It is difficult to apply the concept of universal peace to the invisible kingdom, the church, unless the meaning of the prophet’s language is severely restricted. If one understands the kingdom to have a present aspect as well as a future aspect, the problem becomes less difficult. The NT teaches a present, invisible aspect of the kingdom, which is the church. The millennial kingdom is that aspect of the kingdom in which God’s reign will be realized within the sphere of human history and natural order. It is in this aspect of the kingdom that Amos’s prediction of the blessings of the kingdom may be placed. The hope of Amos is not an isolated one that finds expression only in his book. Nor is it a purely prophetic tradition without relation to other OT traditions. It is an expression of one of the most important themes of OT theology—viz., the promise. This promise, given to Abraham, reiterated to the patriarchs, reaffirmed to David and expressed throughout the OT, affirms that God will mediate his redemptive blessings to Jews and Gentiles in a promised offspring or “seed.” In the prophets, this offspring is clearly the Davidic Messiah, who in the NT is Christ. Amos affirmed that God’s promise has not ceased. In spite of the internal turmoil in the kingdom of his day, God would establish the Davidic monarchy; and through that monarchy God’s blessing would come to “all peoples on earth” (Gen 12:3).

I will respond to this in the morning.

Having seen him is irrelevant. Your premise is flawed. To the core of the question...I for one, fall short-- just as I do in all other ways, This does not mean that I don't try: Phil. 3:14 I apress on toward the goal for the prize of the bupward call of God in cChrist Jesus.

Fried spam and eggs or fried spam sammich! Comfort food. Crispy!

A fried bologna toasted cheese combo is good as well. If ya wanna go crazy--add a thin slice of fresh tomato. First fry the bologna to a nice crispy state...a wee bit of black around the edges is acceptable. :-) Oh--secret ingredient when making toasted cheese sammich is some sweet basil sprinkled in the butter or on the bread. You are welcome.