AdHoc

I think that the events of the book are so intertwined that even one point might provoke much writing. Here is a text. In its Nebuchadnezzar's dream. From the text and the grammar, do you side with the school of thought that makes five kingdoms or four. 31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. I'll be up front and go with four. My reasons are as follows; 1. Verse 38 makes a single Kingdom of Gold 2. Verse 39 makes the following kingdom of silver and brass 3. Then comes the Kingdom of IRON in verse 40 4. Then comes not a new kingdom because (i) the iron remains throughout, (ii) it only adds clay to an existing element, (iii) verse 41 says of this dual setup, "this Kingdom", and (iv) the Kingdom that our Lord replaces with His Kingdom crushes the iron. If the clay signified a new kingdom, then, them being consecutive kingdoms, would cause an absurdity because the iron is still there. History, although not conclusive, has present day Rome alive and well as a player in international affairs. The Treaty of Rome regulates th EU, the Club of Rome regulates international environmental matters. And there are about another 45 international organizations regulated in Rome. Added to this Latin is still used in Law and Medicine. When one considers that Rome fixed Hitler, Lenin and Trotsky in place, it sure looks like Rome is the fourth and final kingdom - just with a democratic addition.

Thank you for presenting your case and for such a comprehensive reply. To answer you point by point would explode the Forum. All I can offer is a brief overview with my supporting verses. In your numbered points you have not offered scriptures, and I find none myself that can support your wording. For instance, you maintain that the goal of the seventy weeks is the restoration of the destruction by Babylon. But where is this even named in the whole Bible. You also maintain that Daniel is a book on salvation. Where is that stated? You make a claim that the 12 Chapters are seamless, but it cannot be for 2 to 7 are written to Foreign kings about their Kingdoms in the language of the day - Aramaic. Then, in an abrupt change of direction, the book deals with "Daniel's People" in the Hebrew language. It is true that the word "AFTER" (69 weeks) could mean much later in regard to the Messiah being cut off. But the Bible usually means "when completed". Jesus was raised "AFTER" three days does not mean a week, a month or a years later. It means, when the three days were completed. So your understanding of "AFTER 69 weeks" is not supported. Then, your understanding of the "He" is not supported by the grammar. Here is verse 26; 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. "... and the people" - a certain Nation "of the Prince that shall come" - sometime AFTER Messiah a Prince will come, and he will have the nationality of the "people who destroy the city and the sanctuary". Since the first Temple did not exist anymore as Daniel wrote, he must have been talking about Zerubbabel's Temple. This was destroyed by the Romans. So the Prince who was yet to come must be a Roman. "desolations are determined to the end of the war" - The war has an end, but during it the city and sanctuary lie desolate. But the next verse, verse 27 speaks of the resumption of the daily oblation. the daily oblation is part of the Law of Moses but can only be sacrificed if there is a Temple and altar. So the implication is that the state of war and desolation caused by the Romans will have an end and a new Temple must stand. At this time a Prince, who s a Roman, will come. Verse 27 continues; 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. "And HE ... " - according to the grammar it means "HE the Roman Prince". "shall confirm" - literally "strengthen" "THE Covenant ... " The article is implied as the capable translators, under peer pressure, agreed upon. The article makes it an ESTABLISHED Covenant that needed strengthening. And the result is the daily oblation. Now, there is only ONE COVENANT on earth and in history that has the daily oblation - The Covenant of Sinai which has, as its content, the Law of Moses. "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" - There is only one reason for this ending of sacrifices. the Roman Prince wants to direct ALL WORSHIP to himself. This is confirmed in Revelation and 2nd Thessalonians 2. the result is that a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, made by Jews for Messiah, is made "desolate" by an imposter - an ABOMINATION to the Lord. And this is the ONE SINGLE SIGN that is given to the Church in Matthew 24 - The Fig Tree with blossoming leaves - works of the Law. It is not 1948 and Israel that is meant, but when they have a Temple that the Law might be fulfilled - the daily oblation. I have simply followed the grammar. It is not obscure. I have added nothing.

In the most respectful way, may I suggest something. Often, when we study a matter we hear of multiple explanations from the foolish to the sublime. When we then put forward the results of our research we tend to attribute a wrong argument to someone who never even mentioned it. To be understood in the first instance, one must follow the words and grammar of the text. Now, brother @R. Hartono did not allude to any one of your 5 questions. His title was clear. "Israel's transgression remains till today and will only end at the end of the last seven" The title is valid. the prophecy is not given to reveal Messiah. It is given to "Daniel's People" and those goals have not been achieved by Daniel's People. Moreover, these goals do not even apply to Messiah. 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. What has "transgression" got to do with Messiah? What sins of the Messiah must be made an end of? And so on ... . Then, what city does the Messiah destroy, and what sanctuary? I'm sure you'll agree, the Messiah does none of these. And far from causing an integral part of the Law to cease, our Lord Jesus has promised to reinstate the Passover when He comes (Lk.22:15-16). The New Covenant is made with UNITED Israel (Jer.31:31-33). That only occurs after the resurrection and gathering of all Israel (Ezekiel 37) in Matthew 24:31. And Matthew 24:31 is "after the Tribulation of those days". There can be no talk of the New Covenant. Messiah does not break any Covenant. You have studied much and you have your position. But it does not help the argument to blame the Roman Church. We all have the text. We have, at least in the KJV, the best translators. And we have the agreement of renown students like G.H. Pember and company - well after the Reformation. And in this case we have no conflicting exposition of the English grammar. The majority position is reasonable. But if Messiah is substituted for "Thy (Daniel's) People", we will surely not get a correct meaning.

Okay. All you say is true. But FREEWILL giving is not socialism. Socialism is the removal, BY LAW, of your fruits and redistributing them by a small minority. I'm glad you brought in, as an example, the rich young man of Mark 10. Let us examine it. He was "young" (Matt.19). This is important because usually it takes years to get rich. How did the man get wealth so soon? The answer is in the text. He kept the Law. The Law of Moses promises diverse blessings for keeping it, and one of them is wealth (Deut.28:1-13). The young wealthy man had simply reaped the benefit of being obedient to God's Law - and it says that "Jesus loved him". This same Law of Moses commanded you to give to the poor and help the needy. The reward for doing this would be MORE WEALTH. So why did our Lord Jesus ask him to give it all away? Was it not legally obtained and in fulfillment of God's promise? There is a word in the new Testament that has been misused. In Ephesians 1:10 and 3:2 we find the Greek word "oikonomia". It is rendered "dispensation", but instead of using the word that means "to dispense", we have emphasized the TIME PERIOD that God "dispenses". And so a controversial word "dispensation" is argued about as being a time period. But the true meaning is "the time in which God DISPENSES a certain way". The word "dispense" has the meaning and sense of a mother in her kitchen DISPENSING what her family need. Now, while men like to have a unified way of dispensing, and term anything outside of this way as "unfair", God is not bound by such rules. Much more He "dispenses" for the good of men. And so while he will dispense by "Conscience" to the Nations (Rom.2), He has, for various reasons, dispensed to Israel according to Law. This "dispensation" by Law ended with John Baptist (Matt.11:13, Lk.16:16). And dispensation of GRACE started (Jn.1:17). The dispensation or "economy" by Grace was a system whereby God wanted to be reconciled to man and man needed TIME to consider his ways and once having considered that he was a sinner, could ask for forgiveness. This great system that God implemented for men has one attribute that men don't like. It is this; JUDGMENT is DEFERRED! The Law required instant RESTORATION and instant RETRIBUTION. But GRACE required a TIME given to come to one's senses. That meant that the OFFENDER would seem to get away with His offense. It would seem that justice was lacking. It was not because God would eventually even things out, but He allowed a TIME when justice was set aside for a later date. AND THE RICH MAN OF MARK 10 FELL INTO THE TRANSITION BETWEEN TWO ECONOMIES. He lived when John Baptist lived, and so he was keeping the Law, but Jesus asked him to play the game of GRACE. LAW says; "Keep your wealth" and GRACE says; "Help the undeserving". GRACE extends far beyond money. Grace says "turn your other cheek to give time to the offender to rethink his way". Law says, "punch back and give another punch as punitive judgment". At all times YOURS is YOURS. Under Law you get to keep it. Under Grace you get to give it away, sometimes to the undeserving. Under Law you could claim restoration and retribution. Under Grace you must WAIT for the harvest. If you extend GRACE you invest in the Kingdom. But the Kingdom comes with the king - Jesus' second coming. This is what happened to the rich young man. He was a model citizen under Law. His wealth was legal and it was his to keep. It was a reward BY GOD. But for the coming Kingdom we need to POSTPONE our claims. Reward will come, bt only when the King comes (Rev.22.12). This was not a lesson in socialism. It was the change of "OIKONOMIA". NOW, you get to lose your wealth. AT CHRIST'S RETURN to get your reward. The Lord simply asks you to be clever. Invest in the needy and your interest rate is high - but in heaven's bank. In the mean time - YOU WAIT and go short.

Thanks for your reply. The position you hold is popular. I would like to answer your objections. 1. In Romans 9:3-4 Paul states that Israelites are "his BRETHREN according to the flesh". In the case of Jesus it is the same. Romans 1:3 says that "according to the flesh He came from the seed of David". To be "brethren" one must have the same FATHER. If all Israel came from Isaac and then Jacob, they are "brethren". In Revelation 7:1-8 we see a REMNANT of Israelites specially sealed so that the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation do not "hurt" them (Rev.9:4). But they are of the Tribes of Israel indicating that they are still in unbelief (If they were believers they would be members of the New Man where there is neither Jew nor Greek). So, during the Great Tribulation there are "brethren" who, being born to women, are less than the least of those born to the Holy Spirit (Matt.11.11, Lk.7:28). These Israelites would be rightly called "the least of Christ's brethren". 2. From the parables on the Kingdom of heaven we know that certain "servants" will not be allowed into the Kingdom. Let us take Matthew 7:21-23 as you proposed. These men and women who make claim to the Kingdom must be all Christians for Mark 16:17 says that casting out a demon is a SIGN of a Believer. The Lord also explained that Satan would never cast out one of his own as his kingdom would collapse (Matt.12:26). Added to this, these people claiming the kingdom are at a special judgment only for those eligible for the kingdom (1st Cor.15:23). Only those "who are His" are raised when "He comes". Added to this, those people knew the Lord in their lifetime (when the did the miracles in His Name). Added to this, to do miracles in His name, one must have POWER. The power is received at the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8). To receive the Holy Spirit for POWER one must be water Baptized (Act.2:38). That company making claim to the Kingdom in Matthew 7 can only be born again Christians, baptized and immersed i the Holy Spirit. They are refused not because of FAITH. They are refused for not DOING the will of the Father. The will of the Father in heaven is lie that of a General in the military. He has the overview and the strategy. He not only distributes the Holy Spirit for POWER, but he decides when to implement it. WE are corporals. Today we do this and tomorrow we do that - BUT ALL ON ORDERS. The company who claimed the Kingdom did NOT do the will of the Father. They used their weapons, but had o immediate order to do it. Why? Because they wee not intimate with the Colonel. Our Lord Jesus, Head of the Church and King of the kingdom does not say that the works were iniquitous. He accuses the men of being "workers of iniquity". The men are iniquitous and may not enter the Kingdom. They knew the Lord. They were Baptized and had received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They did do miracles and they knew they were works of God. But they acted alone without orders. This is the majority view held by the Church today. But consider this. Those judged are "ALL nations". This is a designation for the UNBELIEVER - the Gentiles. Paul, when rejected by the Jews turned fully to the Nations. I could bring dozens of examples. Here is one from Galatians 3:8; 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed The heathen justified by FAITH (the Church) will bring BLESSING to the HEATHEN who belong to ALL Nations. And to confirm this, the judgment is NOT concerning FAITH. ALL Nations are judged on WORKS - what they did to "the least of the Lord's BRETHREN. The Lord's Brethren are CONTRASTED with "ALL Nations". Finally, far from being "believers" those of ALL Nations did not know about Jesus. Even the most elementary Christian knows of Paul's conversion and that Jesus said "if you persecute my people you persecute me .. "! But those judged did not know this. One last point is that this judgment was before "The Throne of His glory". We Christians are NOT judged before this throne. We are judged before the BEMA (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10) a traveling throne because we meet the Lord in the air at His COMING. Weigh each statement I have made. Is each one true? If they are then the majority have missed the meaning and are making one of the biggest mistakes that a Christian can. Those of "ALL Nations" are judged by WORKS. FAITH is never mentioned. The "Sheep" are sheep by WORKS and so are the Goats goats by WORKS.

Thank you both for your replies. You have brought some good and valid arguments. But I did notice that neither of you addressed my kernel argument. It was that God gives differing talents and upholds the individual right to dispose of his fruits as he wishes. And then, to anchor this, God gives two of ten commandments, namely, (i) though shalt not steal, and (ii) though shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods to ensure that he keeps them. Can we approve a system that makes the removal of your fruits a law? What think ye of Deuteronomy 8:18? 18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. Private wealth is attached to Covenant and God's honor is at stake seeing as He made this Covenant. God gives wealth and man makes it law to strip the man of his wealth.

Pilate surely was a corrupt and weak politician. He will surely pay for the expediency of sending Jesus to His death. You can witness that at the White throne Judgment. But the interesting thing is that at least five times in the New Testament the Holy Spirit gives the blame of Jesus' death to Israel: Who Killed Jesus? Acts 2:22-24 22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know — 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken* by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. Acts 2:36-37 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Acts 3:12-15 12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. Acts 4:8-10 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. Acts 5:27-31 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28 saying,"Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!" 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said:"We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. Acts 10:39-40 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they* killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, Acts 13:27-28 27 For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him. 28 And though they found no cause for death in Him, they asked Pilate that He should be put to death. 1 Thess 2:14-15 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,

If you make a study of both the Bible and secular history, you will discover that each and every curse in both Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 have come to pass on Israelites. Particularly gruesome was the fulfillment of verse 57. Nebuchadnezzar's siege of Jerusalem was so effective that the food ran out. Mothers devoured their babies as they were born. Hebrews 11:12 of course speaks of Abraham. From Ishmael he had 12 grandsons before Isaac was even born. Each one became a Nation. From Sarah came Isaac and Jacob which in turn led to the nation of Israel. From Kerturah Abraham had six sons - each one became a nation. And you could make a case from Galatians 3:29 that the Church had its beginning in Abraham although there was a transition IN Christ from the flesh to the Spirit and from earthly to heavenly. As to the Nation's treatment of Christians, we have the grand documented assize in Matthew 25:31.46. The trick here is to find out who the players are. This is how I see it. The judged are "ALL Nations". The Judgment Seat is the same throne from Revelation 4 - a throne awarded in heaven but for ruling the earth. The venue is Jerusalem and the judged of "ALL Nations" are those who survive the Great Tribulation. "The least of the Lord's BRETHREN" must be BOTH Jew and Christian who had to pass through the Great Tribulation. Note that the three scriptures that promise escape from the Great Tribulation ARE CONDITIONAL - 1. Luke 21:35-36 depends on watching and not joining the surfeiting 2. Revelation 3:10 is "BECAUSE ...." 3. Revelation 18:4 is contingent of "coming out of her" Note also that at least four scriptures show the Lord's "Brethren" going through the Great Tribulation 1. Revelation 7:1-9 must be sealed to avoid dying in the Great Tribulation (see 9:4) (Jews) 2. Revelation 7:10-17 had to wash their garments and go through the Great Tribulation (Christians) 3. Revelation 11 - the Two Witnesses 4. Revelation 12 - Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Christians) 5. Revelation 12 - Those who keep the commandments of God (Jews) 6. Revelation 13:7 - the saints are overcome by the Beast - showing them to be on earth during his reign 7. Revelation 20:1-4 - they are beheaded for disobeying the Beast So, it would seem that besides those of Chapter 11 and 20, the slothful Christians are expected to mature during the Great Tribulation and so are titled "the LEAST of the Lord's BRETHREN" Note that in Chapter 12 those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ are helped NOT BY GOD; but by "THE EARTH" The "Sheep" are those "of ALL Nations" who took the chance to disobey that Beast in his persecution of the Lord's brethren The "Goats" are those "of ALL Nations" who refused to help a beleaguered Christian or Jew. Note that for their WORKS the either ENTER LIFE (not HAVE LIFE), or the are sent to the SECOND DEATH In this narrative we see our Lord Jesus bring to justice the Nations who mistreated a Christian or a Jew.

If the Serpent of Eden was one and the same as the one described in Ezekiel 28, he was the most beautiful and gifted of creatures. It was this beauty and talent that led to his fall. The serpent of the Garden was surely not abhorrent. The things of Satan are usually attractive. Eve was enamored by him and not repelled.But a change must have taken place because the Serpent of Eden becomes a "Dragon" in Revelation. His diet ... dust! From Serpent to Dragon needed much eating and his diet of dust leaves no doubt what made him great. But there is another question that begs an answer - and you alluded to it in your title. That is, if Adam and Eve were commanded by the Lord to "Dress and Keep" the Garden of Fellowship, what was the serpent doing there anyway? It looks very much like Adam and Eve had disobeyed God in other things long before eating the forbidden fruit. They were also told to "subdue", and here was the chief rebel. What was Adam and Eve thinking by entertaining him?

Usually, the meaning of true socialism is obscured in a variant designed to distract one from its implications. "Socialism" is, at its base meaning, the management of the social product by an elect group. That is, all the nation's production goes into a pot and is distributed by a select few. What is not said is that the select few are usually of the opinion that the masses are incapable of managing such resources, as page 1 of "Morals and Dogma ... " by Albert Pike, Grand Master of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, tells. The belief is that one must surrender the fruit of of your labor into more capable hands than yours. Communism is defined as socialism WITHOUT the private ownership of land. Well have you said that this system degenerates when Biblical principles are not applied. But can we find socialism itself as a Biblical principle? In the parable of the Talents in Matthew 25 we find the Lord giving HIS goods in proportion to "natural ability". The fact that one gets five, the next two and the last one Talent shows that in His creature God distributes natural ability as He wishes and not equally. At the day of reckoning the original talents still belong to God, but those who were faithful to their portion were rewarded. The scale of reward is the same for both - "the joy of the Lord" as He takes his rightful place in His new KINGDOM. But the unfaithful servant is (i) rebuked, (ii) stripped of his talent, (iii) cast out from the presence of Christ and suffers (iv) grief of soul. At no time is a social plan available for him. He may not enjoy the fruit of others. In Luke and the parable of the pounds, it is not faithfulness that is required, but diligence. Notice that the man producing more is commended AND rewarded. The man still producing but only half of the other is rewarded but NOT commended. Again, the slacker is punished and no thought of supplying him from a social pot is alluded to. The earth is the Lord's but for its management He gave it to men (Ps.24:1, 115.:16). Psalm 8 shows the same. In His Covenant with Abraham, God gave Israel Canaan as "an everlasting possession" and Israel receive it by lot after a bloody conquest. If they are poor businessmen and lose the lot, God institutes a Jubilee when every man is returned to His possession. Stealing another man's possession is a basic law. Can we not say that private ownership of land IS God's will. If I have made my case well, then socialism and communism are not in accordance with God's will. In Acts 5 the early Church tried it and it not only did it not work, but it provoked the death of Ananias and Saphira. In his sentence Peter pointed out that what was THEIRS was at THEIR disposal. However, I understand that pure socialism, where all do their duty, and the managers of the pot are honorable, is a nice thought, especially for the weak and not so talented.

Good question. Let's wait and see if an answer is forthcoming.

A most interesting theme. According to multiple Chapters of the Bible, the Covenant made with Abraham contained about 15 promises. Among the Promises Abraham is promised THREE distinct seeds. 1. THE (singular) Seed that Galatians 3:16 talks of - Christ - Who brought the Holy Spirit to men 2. Seed as the Sand of the Sea shore - Which turned out to be Israel 3. Seed as the Stars of Heaven - which are those called with a heavenly calling (Heb.3:1), born "from above" (lit. Gk. - John 3) Some 430 years later, the seed of Abraham had multiplied to about 2 million. They were God's chosen People, and among their privileges was to have God dwell WITH them. To have an atmosphere holy enough for Jehovah, Israel were given a Law requiring obedience to about 615 laws. These 615 plus/minus Laws were packaged in a second Covenant, ratified in blood like the first, but which did not annul the first. Some 1,500 years later, the First and Singular Seed in point #1 above arrived in Israel. In this 1,950 plus/minus years, Abraham's seed largely ignored the terms of these two Covenants and while the first only required males to be circumcised, the second was devastating to Abraham's seed as its penalties (Lev.26 and Deut.28) overthrew the Promises of the first. By the time Jesus Christ, the First and Singular Seed arrived, Israel were in crisis. The Lord Jesus Christ offered Israel a new way. They had been called "stars of heaven" (Deut.1:10 etc.,), but when offered the Kingdom of Heaven, they refused and were, in turn, rejected by God as stars of heaven. God now turned to all men individually and soon had His New Man, not to replace Israel but to be a New Creature to take up Israel's original place as "seed as the stars of heaven". The bulk of the New Man came from the Gentiles. Gentiles are not the seed of Abraham. How was God to make them eligible for inheriting the earth (Rom.4:13)? God could send them all to Canaan and subject them to circumcision and the Law, but this had proved ineffective, not because the Law was evil, but because it addressed men's weakest point - their flesh (Rom.7). God's solution displayed His utter superiority in all matters. God applied the Law of KINDS that He Himself had set forth in the earth in Genesis 1:11-12. It forced all things that had its seed within itself to reproduce the same KIND. Instead of making the Gentiles become Israelites and under Covenant of Law, He allowed Christ to die as a grain of wheat (Jn.12:24). And in His death, Him being a Man with His ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit, He released us all as the same KIND - men with both humanity and partakers of the divine LIFE. But Jesus, in His humanity, was Seed of Abraham, and so the New Man, which was IN Christ and released at His death BECAME SEED OF ABRAHAM TOO BUT NOT NOT ISRAELITES. Thus, as Galatians 3:29 tells, we are "Seed of Abraham and heirs to the PROMISES" Through the birth "from above" from "incorruptible seed", and put into the "Commonwealth" of Israel, we became eligible for the Promises, but were not subject to the Law. The Law we are subject to is Christ's Life (Rom.8:1-2). The upgrade was so dramatic that God could count the flesh crucified with Christ (Rom.6:1-8) and the way was now paved that God could live IN man, instead of WITH him. And so the New Man, a New Creature were ethnicity is abolished seeing as it has no past (2nd Cor.5:17), became "BETHEL" - the House of God. Now, returning to the Covenants, Israel seems to be thoroughly disadvantaged. Their second Covenant drove them out of the Land that the first Covenant Promises them "for an eternal possession". Israel refused the Kingdom of Heaven and refused their King. Things look hopeless for them. But God has spoken and even added an oath to His Words. Israel will be RECOVERED NATIONALLY. The system God uses is not complicated, but as His honor hangs on doing it legally, Paul takes THREE Chapters in Romans (9, 10 & 11) to explain it. It would be beyond me to shorten this, but I will mention the salient points. Israel's dilemma is that it (i) broke the Law, (ii) refused the solution for the Kingdom of Heaven, (iii) refused the solution to tat which meant faith in Jesus, and (iv) clung to the Law as a means of righteousness before God. Israel can never be promoted to the position and standing of the Church, but they can embrace the Law IF the conditions are improved. So God does just that. First, Jesus died for all sin and sins (Jn.1:29, 1st Jn.2.2). The price is paid and God may apply Christ's sacrifice to Israel. That is why the prophets predict Israel's sins put away. Next, he writes the Law, not on stone tables, but on the inward parts of the Jew. Then He gives the Jew a new heart and a new spirit. Then he replaces the Covenant (not the Law). The Law does not pass and is fully applicable to the Israelite, but God does two more things from the outside. He resurrects the Jews (Dan.12:1-2) so the sin-nature is gone (see Romans 5:12-17) and he puts a Perfect King over them - Jesus. The Jew becomes an intrinsic Law-keeper and thus BOTH Covenants work in His favor. The objection to this scheme is always the same. "Salvation is by FAITH in Jesus", and I agree. But this "salvation" is NOT rebirth, eternal life and being made the abode of God. It is the RESTORATION of Israel AS A NATION according to the COVENANTS. A short summary of the prophets is found in Luke 1:67-78. Israel have Covenants. God cannot break them. Not one sentence of the Covenants requires FAITH to fulfill them. Israel must DO their side and God will DO His side. But Israel can never attain to what the Christian holds. And lastly, the abolishment of the Law on the cross stated in Ephesians 2:15 IS ONLY FOR THE CHURCH. For Israel, "not one jot or tittle will pass" until the old earth passes. Contemporary teaching in the Churches teaches that the saved by FAITH go to heaven and the rest of men go to hell. The Bible teaches that God will set up a new government on earth (Dan.2, Revelation 11, 22) run by Christ and the Believers. The purpose of this new government is "that all the families of the earth will be blessed"- one of the 15 promises that was made to Abraham. The Lake of Fire is real. The various judgments are real. But God made man to be in His image and likeness and to RULE THE EARTH. He will achieve this via the seed of Abraham and these "servant-kings" bring God's blessing to the world.

What a question! I'd never considered it, but it made me sit up and think. Religious prisoners in countries opposed to the Bible have no access to the Bible and from Watchman Nee's story it is obvious that in China sometimes a Bible is taken apart and distributed a page at a time to the saints. As I stand here now I would not be able to choose a Chapter, but what flashed through my mind was either John Chapter 1 or The New Jerusalem. In John 1 we have God's dealings to gain BETHEL - "the House of God" - "the place He chose to put His name". Bethel is very cklose to God's heart. If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life he would have automatically become God's abode - something that is central to the gospel of John. In Revelation 21 we have a City that is the consummation of God's plan with the earth and men. The gold speaks of God's nature, the pearls speak of the righteousness of Christ under Law, the precious stones depict the transforming work of the Holy Spirit. The Walls show the Garden of Fellowship brought to order with the serpent blocked from entering, and the Gates are Israels destiny as the Nations go up annually to worship Christ and the profane are kept away from a Holy God. The City has the glory of God - a fulfillment of Romans 8:29. It would be torture to have to choose- Thank you Jehovah for my shelf full of Bible Versions.

@Neighbor @Sower @FJK @Marathoner and you others, I find this a profitable thread. I was a young Christian before the Internet and would have dearly liked this kind of input from older experienced brothers and sisters. Keep it up brethren.

Fair enough. We've both put forward our points. I feel that I've said enough. May the Lord bless your walk with Him.

In Matthew 7:21-23 we find a group of men who are at the right assize, and who make claim to the rewards of their service to the Lord. They do not have to defend evil behavior and the Lord does not deny that they did man wondrous works in His Name including casting out demons. That is, they knew the Lord, believed in Him, were Baptized (otherwise they could not have had the POWER to do these works - Act.2:38, 1:8, Lk.24:49), were endowed with supernatural power and displayed the signs of a believer (Mk.16:17). Their record of works is enviable. And yet the Lord condemns them to the uttermost. He does not say that their works were iniquitous. H says that THEY were WORKERS of iniquity - a subtle difference which He explains in that they did the works but the Father had not ordered them. The Lord gives the reason for this "iniquity". It was that He did not "know" them. The Greek word "ginosko" does not mean intellectual knowledge. Its meaning is "intimate knowledge". It is used to explain that Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary until after Jesus was born (Matt.1.25). The mischief that came from no intimacy was that they were not intimate with the WILL of the Father. But we learn from Ephesians 6 that it is God's will that we fight spirits. So what WILL had these well-meaning Spirit filled Christians not complied with? It must have been the Father's STRATEGY. The preconditions for having the POWER to do it, and the REASON for doing it were all satisfied. What remained then to be fulfilled. THE TIMING. God's planning is flawless. It is like Swiss watch. Precision in detail. What He wants is men who will DO HIS WILL and not think up what they deem God to need. For this affront to God's authority and for doing THEIR will, all caused by NO INTIMACY, the men claiming the Kingdom are severely rebuked, lose their reward, and if the other parables are consistent, the are cast out of the presence of Christ and may even receive stripes. But Christmas and Easter carry a double insult. They were NOT chosen by men to commemorate Christ in any way. They had been in existence long before that in honor of Baal at the winter Solstice and Ishtar at the Spring Equinox. That is, feasts in honor of the ENEMIES of God and mankind. And that Christians have anything to do with them is akin to a Marine crossing the Korean DMZ to visit the statues and Mausoleum of Kim II Sung and join the festivities on their National Day (9th Sept.). Or maybe a better examples is the Israeli People voting for a national public holiday and feast on Hitler's birthday. God gave us Christians four memorials or signs in our walk among the Nations. (i) Baptism, (ii) the Lord's Table, (iii) the women's head covering and (iv) Love for one another. The Lord has given us freedom in almost all areas of our lives. You can buy the car you like and marry the woman of your choice. You can paint your house purple and have any hobby you can afford. But in God's matters we are to do HIS WILL. And if He wanted a day in honor of Jesus He would have indicated it. I am reasonably sure though, that it would not coincide with the great day of a fertility goddess with its orgies. Jeremiah wrote against the Christmas Tree some 650 years before Christ was born (Jer.10). The command was "learn NOT the way of the heathen ... !" However, I am ever mindful of the Lord's instruction to me in Romans 14 and make no accusation - only arguments; 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. (Ro 14:4–6). Go well soldier

Indeed - a slap in the face. But the issue is deeper. What are we servants of our Lord "choosing" a day to commemorate, when no such instructions were given? You and I both, having had the privilege of professional military training and experience, would not dare make our own battle plan, let alone execute it. And that is my point. Aaron's words over the calf were: 4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD. 6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. (Ex 32:4–6) For this Jehovah wanted to kill the whole Nation (v.10).

"Resurrection day"? Not quite. It is the celebration of the fertility goddess Ishtar (Diana of Ephesus). It's calculation is via the Spring Equinox (Northern hemisphere) and the first Sunday after the next full moon. This year these dates are 20th March, 25th March, and 30th March. Resurrection day would be 3 days after the Passover, which, this year of 2024, is 22 April, but I believe it is a Jewish Leap year. Of course, it is "nice to know" and not critical to our Faith .... or is there a question mark on hundreds of thousands of Christians joining in with the Rome?

Did I say "Revelation 14" was in heaven, or did I say that "the 144,000 of Revelation 14 are in heaven". Yes ... "Oh my". Not nice. I think a pause in communications will be the best thing. We are unable to discuss a point like this.

It's time to reconsider. The text above speaks of Israel's resurrection and gathering to thier LAND. The 144,000 of Revelation 14 are "redeemed FROM the earth". The setting in Revelation 14 is heaven. Thanks for the Easter wishes. Very kind of you. But Easter is the feast of the Fertility goddess Ishtar (Diana of Ephesus), so I'll decline. But if you celebrate .... ?

Why ... Thank you! Its been nice exchanging with you, here and other threads.

You changed the word "creature" to "Israelis" - naughty ... naughty. It is NEW CREATURE - something totally new that never existed before. But try this: "In the New Man are new Israelis but no Israelis altogether ... " But nevertheless God bless you abundantly

I didn't say this. the Bible says it: 2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV (WS)) 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, ALL things are become new. Do you know what "new" means? It means it was not before Do you know what "passed away" means? Do you know that "ALL" means "ALL" including ethnicity? Galatians 3:27-28 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Colossians 3:10-11 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. .

There was a tabernacle in heaven which Moses took as the pattern for the earthly tabernacle. There is a Throne in heaven but Christ will set up one on earth. There is a Mount Sion on earth BUT ALSO IN HEAVEN (Heb.12:22).

You had better read Isaiah 14 again. Here's the full version: 1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. 2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors. 3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, The dispersed of Israel will be returned TO THEIR OWN LAND. To their OWN LAND will they take of their oppressors. In their OWN LAND will they cause them to serve. You pointedly ignored Matthew 19:28 and Jeremiah 30:9 which will have CHRISTIANS RULING ISRAEL. You pointedly ignored my points. You pointedly did not rebut the differences between those of Revelation 7 and Revelation 14. You are selective with verses outside of their context. You pit scripture against scripture.