BibleWords

I am totally pre-trib and pre-mill as most anyone on here already knows. That of course makes my beliefs all futurist in nature. This position interprets the Bible consistently literally and uses the grammatical and historical approach. Therefore I believe that the rapture is the next thing on the Christian’s list of events. My position is pretty standard end time theology. I am a Missionary Baptist pastor so the regular Baptist eschatology is really prevalent in my doctrine. You asked the starting point of the seven year tribulation. I believe it is the rapture of the church. I realize that there are many different views on end times here on the forums. Believe me, I have had my share of discussions about that very subject. I respect differing views from my own. However, this is my position and I don’t think that now after many years of study there is any chance of changing my doctrine.

No they cannot, or will not.

You are exactly right. There seems to be a total abandonment of Biblical right and wrong. Biblical truth is offensive to so many these days. However, we have the assurance of Phil. 4:13–I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.

Give Scripture for any of that.

You are so right. Well said.

Sounds like the partial rapture theory. Is that what you’re saying?

The Bible does show us Jesus in the throne room of God. The question is asked, “Who is worthy?” John is sad because no one is found worthy. Then John is told not to be sad because The Lamb is there and found worthy to open the seals of the book. The Lamb is Jesus. What do you mean He was in the center of the earth? He was right there, he came forward and took the book. This is John’s vision of the scene in heaven, after the rapture. Of course the rapture hasn’t happened yet today, but this is a vision of the future.

That’s correct, it has not.

There is no Scriptural evidence that 32 AD was Jesus opening any seal. Complete speculation. That would make the book of Revelation spread across the entire Church Age. Nowhere is that taught in Scripture.

You really and truly do not know your Bible at all. Before you worry about confusing others you should really try to help your own confusion. I don’t know how old you are but it sounds like some one has really mixed you up.

You are wrong on all counts. Pre wrath is not at all in these verses. No one in the writing of these verses ever heard of a pre wrath position or ever even alluded to it. We are saved from the wrath to come, that is true, but not right before it is poured out. Everything that happened in 70 ad was a type of what was to come in the last days. The destruction of the temple in 70 ad comes no where close to the violence and destruction in the tribulation. Since you asked, I was saved at 17, I was raised in the church, I had Christian parents, lived in a Christian home, and was called to preach at 17 also. I am now 65 years old, have been in the ministry 48 years and have pastored the same Baptist Church for the last 35 years in June. I have preached, taught and studied the pre-trib rapture for all of this time. This is not a new doctrine for me. Pre wrath position rapture has never been Scriptural. We are taken out before God’s wrath but at the beginning of the tribulation. One more thing, pre-trib rapture was the doctrine of the first century church. They never heard of your doctrine, and they certainly did not believe it.

This is not the rapture. This is the resurrection at the end of the tribulation. Not at all the same resurrection. This resurrection mentions no shout, no trumpet, no rapture of the living, no dead in Christ rising first. The Scriptures say “shall be delivered” but that does not mean rapture. It instead means God will protect and they will be “delivered”. God will not let them be overcome but the rapture is not seen here.

You will always have a friend in Jesus and there are plenty of Christians who love and will befriend those who need them. Don’t believe the lie that you are alone or unlovable.

I don’t think I will “precede” the dead in Christ. 1Thess. 4:16-“the dead in Christ shall rise first”. Of course. The dead in Christ here are those who have died knowing Christ. They will rise first, then we who are alive and remain will follow them immediately. Both of these, the dead and then the alive following them, will happen at the pre-tribulation rapture. This resurrection is at the rapture. Try not to confuse the rapture and the second coming. They are not the same.

Just what the Bible teaches.

The first 14 verses of Matt. 24 are describing the church age. Many pre-trib rapture people like myself disagree with me on this. But there is nothing in those verses that would indicate anything but church age. I see the rapture happening after verse 14 when the gospel is preached in the whole world. I know that some think that the 144 thousand will preach here in verse 14 and this is tribulation. I do not think so. When the rapture happens the world will go on under Antichrist for 3 1/2 years in peace and prosperity. Then at the mid trib the abomination of desolation will occur and Israel and many gentiles will realize that they have been deceived by Antichrist, and have missed the rapture 3 1/2 years before. Then the Great Tribulation begins for 3 1/2 more years. Verses 15-51 are the Great Tribulation.

The church is not present after Rev.4:1 on earth. The saints are mentioned, yes, but they are the tribulation saints saved after the rapture. They are still saints because they know Jesus but they are not a part of the church. The Bible separates believers into more than one category. 1. Old Testament believers. 2. New Testament believers, which are the church. 3. Tribulation believers, who are saved after the rapture.

No evidence for any pre-adamic age or prior world civilization.

I don’t know where you get your evidence that you say, “supports the latter more than the former”. If some one who had never read or heard of the Bible and had never heard any theories about it suddenly picked up Genesis and read it for the first time, they would believe it for exactly what it says. There is no doubt that Genesis is giving a literal account of creation as any unbiased reader would conclude. All of the far fetched ideas of a gap theory or thousand year days or pre-creation existence of created beings or other nonsense that the Bible does not teach are a feeble effort to somehow coddle the false teaching of evolutionary theory.

I have been teaching a class on 2 Pet. this quarter in Sunday School, and you are right. Peter was adamant about recognizing and rejecting false teachers. Every thing must be run through the great dividing test of the Word of God. We cannot be too careful about what we allow into our minds and hearts. Matt. 7:15–Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets”. The word “beware” ought to tell us something. It indicates danger or risk. We as believers and followers of Jesus must pay attention to what we hear and who we listen too. Always test everything by the Word of God.

I have one example that might be like you describe. Let’s call him Cliff. He was a pastor of a small church years ago who preached hard on end times and had a very distorted view. While he did not have a large following he would however qualify as a false doctrine teacher. It grew so bad that at the climax of his deception the group had purchased a used school bus and were preparing to head to the wilderness in Canada. It never materialized as the cost and commitment to such a plan is very involved. He and his wife later divorced. I talked to her years later on, and she admitted that he had problems. If it doesn’t match with the Word, throw it out.

Of course there are prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. This is not a prophecy. This is an announcement for the very day it happened. The angel said “this is Christ the Lord”. Not, “He will be Christ the Lord”. He was Christ the Lord at that very moment, and even before. Keep it simple. Read the text for exactly what it says. It says “is” Christ the Lord. And therefore fully God at birth.

Luke 2:11–This verse that I gave you at the first was before His resurrection.

When I said Jesus was 100% man and at the same time 100% God, you said it was not in Scripture. It’s all over the Scripture. You seem stuck on the fact of Jesus being flesh, once a fetus, no earthly father, etc. Where in Scripture does it say that Jesus ever stopped being fully God. Even temporarily.

Titus 2:13–“while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” Jesus Christ is without a doubt God even while He is in the flesh.