Fraught

thanks for the topic. i find it uplifting. that may seem strange but . . . (Isaiah 11:9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea) those who would hurt and destroy have got to go. I think the answer comes down to the idea of justice. Besides love, God is a God of justice. without justice, how could there be real love? we make excuses for people; God doesn't do that. God knows what is in peoples' hearts; we cannot know. p.s.: I once read an article that theorized that humans have no independent spirit. We are animated by either the spirit of satan or the Spirit of God. I couldn't, of course, say that this is necessarily true, but if it were, well . . . that would explain a lot.

Interesting topic. As a believer growing up in a home of non-believers, I can't remember when I found out santa claus was a lie. I do know that I regret perpetuating the lie with my own children, but somehow we just keep doing it without even giving it rational thought. When I found out, it was no great revelation; it was as if I had always known. I think this is probably the more common experience. If I was a thinking individual, I would ponder the weird things that we all believe without actually having any reason to believe them - everything from the little neuroses that everyone has to the fact that the world is a good place. It's almost like there really is a 'prince of the power of the air' that feeds things into your head from the magnetic waves all around you and makes you carry on with traditions like santa claus or eating processed foods without full realization of what you are doing. Okay, sorry - in my own odd world, this does relate to santa claus but you made me think too much about it, so carry on. i'm butting out for now.

It is so crucial, and so often missed, that it is not the things we do that make us right or not right with God. It is not the things we don't do. Rather, it is the kind of person we are becoming. Living under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, you will become the kind of person that that just naturally would do the the things that produce the works/fruit of the Spirit, and the kind of person that just naturally would not do the things that produce the works of the devil. It is really that simple. The process takes time but it is at work in all of us. As to the original post, Joshua 77 gave the answer I would give, as far as the grace operating regardless of physical circumstance. I could just add 'all things working together for good' wouldn't necessarily prevent you from getting a bruised apple, but may use your getting the bruised apple for the good of the kingdom in some way. (bruised apple, of course, being a metaphor for any number of things.)

Anglo Saxon societies forbade murder and theft. In fact, I cannot think of a single society, ancient or modern which has not done so. In any case, most secularists, whether reigious or atheist, would prefer to see a society where the state enforces rules to which all reasonable people could agree. It's not reasonable to expect that a person consents to a law which is justified only if one accepts the veracity of a particular religious text. There are good reasons which will convince any reasonable atheist as to why a society should outlaw theft or murder. Not so when it comes to other issues, like keeping holy a sabbath day, not eating pork, or criminalisation of homosexual acts, etc. I hear you tommy - what do you make of ancient Roman society where peadophilia was rampant and acceptable especially amongst the wealthy and prestigious members of its community? And what do you make of cannibalism which has roots in many cultures including the Anglo Saxons? Eating pork and keeping the Sabbath - are you suggesting Christians try to make folk observe these OT laws? I eat pork and I don't keep Sabbath according to OT laws - does that make me a pseudo Christian? I think it's not a good idea to base the laws of today on the laws of the past regardless of what culture we're talking about. Just because something was done in the past does not mean it's a good idea to do it now- as you show with your example of cannibalism. Some of the laws which have been observed across many cultures are good ones and we should definitely keep them, but others are not and should not be preserved. What we need is a way to figure out which are which. I think any reasonable number of people can get together, be they Christians, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, etc., and come up with laws that everyone can agree to abide by. There are other laws which are given by God according to some people's beliefs (like not eating pork if you are Jewish or Muslim) which I don't think should be the law for everybody else. This is because eating pork only makes sense as being immoral if you believe that God thinks it's wrong to eat pork. Since not everyone does believe this, and since it's not right to force religious beliefs on people if they're not harming you, it would be unfair for a Jewish majority, for example, to pass laws making it illegal for anyone to eat pork. It *is* fair to force people not to kill or steal, however, since this is objectively harmful behaviour regardless of what you believe. I am not sure if all Jewish folk abstain from eating pork.. And I think you are missing the point when it comes to cannibalism etc - a society didn't just wake up one day and decide that eating other human beings was bad - no - it flowed on after Chrisitanity was introduced to that society and the people were now "enlightened" ....this is most definitely the case in New Guinea where cannibalism was still rife in the 20th Century. (we now know today that cannibalism gives the same symptoms as the Mad Cow" disease which hit GB and Europe not too long ago).. On the whole, the US is considered a "Christian country" that sits on a Christian foundation stemming from the Hebrew Bible. How do you feel about the fact that your founding fathers brought Christianity to the Americas and built your country on that particular foundation rather than say certain American Indian religious views or Hinduism? I wonder how the US would look today if it was founded on atheisitic belief system. Vastly different? Not much different? Do you think Christianity has helped the US become the great nation that it is? Because there is no doubt that the US has been the leading Western country for many many years... anyone from any religious background can see that. the US is different because of this 1 statement from the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence. It is the basis from which the constitution is derived and is very different from many countries where the good of the state is more important than the good of individual citizens: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

i have kept up with this some in the past. this oil is the same type that there is also a ton of in canada. it is not cost effective to get it out. something to do with 'oil shale' if i recall correctly. at the present cheap oil prices, it costs more to get it out than the company would make. now if the price of oil goes up and stays up like some are predicting, then that situation could change.

a little off topic, but I have to reply: continually in the presence - but we all are. Do not imagine your Father as far off. God, being omnipresent, is right beside you now. Therefore, so is your angel, if you have one. Most importantly, God is with you everywhere; you are in Christ everywhere.

First, it's rather silly to equate pre-scientific notions of spontaneous generation with modern ideas concerning abiogensis. Second, the article seems to have left out some important information such as the Powner and Sutherland experiments where they demonstrated that pyrimidine ribonucleotides can form under prebiotic conditions. I think the point is that 'modern ideas' are having to resort to 'pre-scientific' notions. Sure, more contemporary phrasing is being used, but can't we look beneath semantics to what is really being said? some people don't.

Well, drat! Here I've been told I have all the characteristics of leo. Just jokin', folks . . . I don't read my horoscope. (although, speaking of, do you ever notice how hard it is to avoid it? That thing is everywhere!

Why is attraction to a member of the opposite sex 'natural' but attraction to a member of the same sex is 'unnatural'? Could you define 'natural' for me, in this context? God made you, a man, to find women attractive. That is natural and the way it should be. Being attracted to other men is unnatural; you were not intended to be that way. What is so hard about this? It's hard because most men, at one time or another, have been attracted to other men. This is just a fact of life. To feel a passing attraction for cannot be sinful. To lust for another, which would be to nurture the attraction, is something completely different, and wrong no matter which sex it is.

Why is attraction to a member of the opposite sex 'natural' but attraction to a member of the same sex is 'unnatural'? Could you define 'natural' for me, in this context? God made you, a man, to find women attractive. That is natural and the way it should be. Being attracted to other men is unnatural; you were not intended to be that way. What is so hard about this? It's hard because most men, at one time or another, have been attracted to other men. This is just a fact of life. To feel a passing attraction for cannot be sinful. To lust for another, which would be to nurture the attraction, is something completely different, and wrong no matter which sex it is.

Not to lie. For me, even stalling like you're doing is a lie, a form of deception. I say 'for me' because that's the way it is for me. God requires me to speak the truth directly and it always works out a whole lot better when I do. You may not be at that place, but I hope you think about it.

a further mystery. I don't like this at all. It is very upsetting (I really like birds, lol). I want to know the cause and I want to know Right Now! (so says my inner 2-year old)

That is pure conjucture on his part. While it is remotely possible, there would have to be changes that could easily be stopped if it heads off in that direction. Yes, but we all know the human heart and how it is deceptively wicked and tends towards death instead of life. That was the warning of Dickens encapsulated above and we know that the systems of Socialiized Health Care in Canada and Great Britain among others have all gone this way. Conjecture? Or Informed Opinion? Even I can look around and see that this is the path of logic and it no problem at alll for me to imagine exactly how it will happen.

How did you come to the conclusion that Israel will be God's government on the earth? I see the the passage about those in Christ being kings and priests as pretty straightforward.

The Same And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 Almighty One See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. Deuteronomy 32:39-40 Who Hung On Calvary's Tree Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2 Is The One Who Called The Worlds Into Existence That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:9-10 And Yet He Calls Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47 Come Sinner I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17 Come That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10 Love, Joe Doesn't do it for me Joey. Anyone else have a reasonable answer that isn't a direct quote from the book I'm refuting? Why does God require bloodshed? How can this law that states bloodshed is required be imposed on the creator of everything? It seems like a very dark and merciless being that would insist on blood and death. Man started it: Genesis 4:9-11Then the LORD said to Cain, "(A)Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?"He said, "What have you done? (B)The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground."Now ©you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. God feels this way about bloodshed: Genesis 9:5-7 (New International Version,

We all just concentrate on God. God changes us from the inside. We are all on God's time schedule and the Holy Spirit indwelling will complete you in the way and time in which God sees fit as you are willing to allow. Do not lean upon your own understanding. I want to change overnight, and the change seems so slow at times. But when I look back at the feelings/understandings I had about certain things compared to the way I think now, it seems amazing. The best times, the best deeds, are when I didn't think about myself at all. May our prayer be that we are in that time more and more often as we grow in Christ.

I have always enjoyed the hurly-burly of vigorous debate, but rarely have I encountered such vituperation in a single post. You seem to be lacking some of the "Christian love and tolerance" possessed by other members of this forum. And what about the other members - do you agree with shiloh357 that I am, * corrupt * every thing I do is iniquity * my best deeds on my best day are as filthy as menstrual rags [That last insult is actually quite brilliant - like a dead fish in the moonlight, it both shines and stinks. I shall be quoting it on other forums for years to come.] But seriously, am I expected to put up with responses like this on a regular basis? I can handle it, don't worry about that - but I am wondering if such zealotry is normal on this site, or is shiloh357 one of a kind? I think you will find more agreement than not. When you do as the rest of us have done, look deeply inside yourself, you will find such corruption and ugliness as to take your breath away. When I understood what I was, when I stripped away all my rationalization, when I examined my true motives, yes I found those things to be true. And I have not found anyone who is different. So yes, I agree with Shiloh. You may take comfort in the fact that you are not the only one, but in the end, we are all 'alone' with ourselves, without God.

that is a myth. it is a myth that religion has caused most of the wars and conflicts, propagated by secularists. you can find such quotes as "it was expedient to cloak them under a mantle of faith", or "But their actions are often enabled and legitimised by ideologies and claims of a sacred nature" Persons such as the well-known atheist Richard Dawkins propagate the myth. Persons such as the philosopher David Martin set us straight by actually pushing forward the facts.

Ditto to losing my culture when I came to Christ. I include many of the above and add losing the culture of striving for material success and the coveting of all the latest and best of everything in order to feel secure in my standing with others of my society.

That is incorrect. Here is why. Apply Game Theory. Assange controls the rules of the game. The losing move (or most damaging) is if America were to actually arrest him and put him on trial. I'll explain that in a minute. What has been leaked thus far are just diplomatic cables, and not the most damaging ones, to be sure. 1K / 250K+. A fraction of a percent. If Assange is brought before a court, killed, or assaulted, or access to cables currently out is blocked, among other things, he (or someone else) will release an key that will decrypt a large cache of files that has already been distributed. It includes ALL the cables, and much more unrelated material. Nobody really knows for certain. Reasonable speculation implies that one small portion of that data would take down a Major US Bank. I have no clue what data is in that file, as it is nearly impossible to decrypt, even with a supercomputer. ANY move that would take Assange out of the game releases a Massive, Destructive Cache of Data. It is without a doubt, a major losing move. Assuming that the chaos wrought from that release could be managed, that only makes a terrible situation much worse. Assange is only one person. Wikileaks has other major people, and many, many volunteers. You can't arrest hundreds of people across the world and prevent all their data getting out at the same time. Even if it can be pretended that you could arrest hundreds of people across the world, his movement has garnered a very disproportiante amount of sympathy for the cause of government transparency, no matter the cost. He will be made a martyr that even otherwise reasonable people could possibly relate to. The new game called Wikileaks would become much, much more popular. But all of these outcomes would be because of making a series f disastrous losing moves. To Quote Wargames, the only winning move is not to play. I see no possible move that could change the terms of the game, and it is Assange who has the real power on the field. I see your point. And admire your logic, by the way. I have to add that I would love to see it all come out. Let the chips fall where they may - I can't stand secrets of any kind.

Has anyone done a study of this? Specifically, if there any references to the set time in the Old Testament book? It says" 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces[a] of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. or in the KJV: when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

There you have it. There's nothing that will be leaked that is really going to hurt anything. None of it is any big deal. Otherwise, it would have been stopped.

. . . sounds like divine intervention !!

Another reason 'Why': We have a job to do. One of the jobs will be judging the angels. Another of the jobs will be acting as a witness to the righteousness of God. Another will be assuming dominion over the Earth. So, why should God deliver us from this body of sin and death? To prepare us for the job we have to do. This is our reason for living.

i was reading a book earlier in the week from a well-respected pastor, one not known for the spectacular, and he mentioned in relation to an entirely different subject, that people were 'going back to the worship of the old gods/goddesses'. i didn't know what to think when i read that, and still don't, but i can't forget it. i agree that this kind of thing should not be just dismissed out of hand. we should be watchful.