His_Own

Thanks for reading and considering. You are precious. Absolutely true, NO ONE wants these things aired publicly. But sometimes it seems that is the only thing that will allow them to break out of their self-righteousness and denial to actually deal with the issue. I don't think I would have believed that, if I were not so close to a situation where it appears we may need to bring "it" to the attention of others in order for "them" to deal honestly with the situation, rather than just brushing it aside. WOW! Do you ask GOOD questions!! In this situation, I think only He really knows the answer to that one. Obviously, Matthew 18 says we are to deal with it privately, then with two or three, and then take it to the church. It seems a month is not a lot of time to "deal" with it. But what do you do when the one you are dealing with IS the head of the denomination, and there is not physical spiritual authority to whom one can appeal? Do we go to the head of another denomination? Is the principle: "Vengence is Mine" and let Him deal with it? If we followed Matthew, we have not been silent, we have brought it to the attention of the one who offended, so the blood of the rebellious one is not on our hands?? Okay, I think I stand corrected. I think. Not sure. [Love ya, Artsy!! I know exactly what you mean!!] I Corinthians seems pretty plain that going before unbelievers is a shame, no if ands or buts. AND we are not to go to a "high and mighty" head of a denomination, but to the least esteemed. I was thinking you needed to find someone of his position or above, so he would listen to them. But that is not so. Do you suppose He is trying to tell His Own to be humble?? (Personal, but maybe Juanita is thinking along these lines as well: AAARRRGGGHHH!! Unless the Father intervenes, I think I just "lost" $8K that a "pastor" owes me. NOOO! But this pastor is rebellious!!! And this was a business deal! Surely that is not the same. He says he is a Christian. I believed him for years, but now I know him better. He lives and teaches New Age. He is a sheep in wolves clothing!! What about then?? Surely that is different? Any PMs of wisdom would be appreciated.) 1 Corinthians 6:1

But many states ALLOW those as young as 14 to marry with the consent of their parents. Texas did until a few months ago (less than 2 years). Some states allow marriage without consent as young as 16. It is even LEGAL for a minor who is married to be pregnant. (A minor is usually considered to be someone who is not legal age. Legal age has varied between 16-21.) If it is legal and they are married why would you have a problem with that? Now, if you are talking about the massive rate of promiscuity among the young in our society, and the "entertainment" industry that is programming them to think these things are okay, the abortion, poverty, destruction of family units, disease and all that goes with it. I would agree, that should be addressed. But it should be addressed by His Own! It is the church who has abdicated its responsibility. It was never intended to be the role of a secular government. So, in that sense, we, the church, by not caring for His helpless ones, have brought this upon ourselves. We should not have abdicated. We should not have allowed the enemy an open door to so violently rip apart families.

Brandon's Popo, That "story" has lots of similarities: People who are peaceably minding their own business (in the case of the story, people who are known to be godly to HIM) Outsiders who have no understanding of what is happening A call to authorities Authorities who assume guilt Authorities who split up families without evidence Authorities who keep children from their parents during investigation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brandon's Popo, I agree with you that rape is destructive beyond words. Victims need all the support they can get. I have seen it ruin lives. You cannot know how deeply it has touched mine. But I have heard Nothing of rape victims in this story. From what I have heard in the press, it started with a phone call that appears to be from one who is not even from the area. (a set up?) Even the authorities have stated that there has been absolutely NO abuse that they have found among ANY of the boys or the girls younger than 13. They only question whether there might be abuse of the girls that are teens, but have not yet verified it. But, they are taking ALL the children anyway! Even Texas law stated that it was okay for a 14 year old to marry with their parents' consent! That is until less than 2 years ago. Then, after this group moved in, they changed the law to 16, specifically because of this group. These were marriages with the parents consent. So, even if they did happen to find a marriage with a 14 year old, they would have been legal marriages prior to the change in the law. They have stated that the new head (Warren Jeffs?) was not careful about the age - but he is gone. Justice has been done. What about the basic human rights of these children? Precisely!! They have a right to be with their parents! They have a right not to be detained without their permission or the permission of their parents! They have a right to live in an environment they believe to be godly - away from the polluted language, games, TV, video, politics, etc. that our culture spews out to defile the lives of all it touches. The have a right to wear modest clothing without being made fun of. What about their basic rights!!! Have you not heard of the horror stories in the foster care system? I know several foster care families who continually have to fight for the children to get their basic needs met! And those are the ones that our Father has raised up!! There IS abuse - including sexual abuse - in that system! That is a KNOWN fact. So they take them out of a system they THINK MIGHT be abusive, and put them into a system that they KNOW has abuse in it!! I once belonged to a conservative Baptist Church. One of the elders had a young teen daughter who had made a habit of stating that she was staying overnight with a friend, when she was in fact out partying. So, they started calling (prior to cell phones) to "wish her good night", etc. And, if she was not there, they would ground her. She filed a report for child abuse. If the authorities had responded to this report as they did to the phone call which was made, they would have gotten the Feds involved, gotten armored vehicles and swat teams, surrounded our little church, removed our women and children, put all the children in foster care. There would have been more evidence in instance because the report was written, made by an actual member of the church. But, it still would have been an UNSUBSTANTIATED report. That, sir, is NOT right! YES, we are to protect the helpless! But there are SOOOO MANY ways to protect the helpless that do NOT violate rights. The sheriff had established a relationship with the leaders. They could have quietly asked to interview the young women, or quietly escorted them off the ranch, rather than terrifying the entire community - even the nation, with their actions. The call was NOT about child abuse, but about a man abusing his wife!! She was (had the call been real) 16 - so she was even legal age to marry!! This, to me, is a direct attack on "fundamental Christians". It is a pattern with societies. They attack those that do not "fit". If they get by with that, they start attacking segments with greater and greater populations and influence until they feel free to ship entire cultures to the gas chambers. The media helps by demonizing those whose rights have been violated. They make it extreme Black vs. White. You are either defending the children or defending "predators". They present the story so that there is no room to consider other viable, reasonable alternatives. They polarize the populace. And we tend to fall for it, time after time, after time. Just look at this thread! United we Stand; Divided we Fall. PLEASE read the history of Germany before World War II. Those who desire to subdue a free people ALWAYS made up some highly emotional excuse that required them to violate the rights of a group they could demonize in order to "protect" someone or something. Please, go to youtube.com and search for Naomi Wolf. Yes, she is liberal, but she has studied this and she is the best presenter for these points (which I first heard from fundamental Christians) that I have seen. Don't just take her word for it, or mine. Study it yourself. It is not just Germany that did this. There is a checklist that is consistently used to destroy nations, and we are so very near the end. You are right to be emotional about this. Our very existence as a nation depends on how we respond to these cases. It MUST be in LOVE and in HIS Spirit and wisdom. You started your paragraph with a comment about my post. Then you stated "I've asked three questions of you" I am not sure what three questions you are referring to. I do hope that I addressed them all. If I did not, perhaps we should continue this conversation with PMs, rather than take the thread off topic. I appreciate your care for the helpless. In this time, it is so easy for one's love to grow cold. In tragedies, there is often more than one helpless side. I know that if I was one of the parents in this situation, I would feel helpless, apart from Him. May we see with His eyes and discern with His wisdom. :emot-hug:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. I was asked to do an extensive study on this by one whom I was discipling. It was amazing. To call another a fool in Hebrew is to make a statement that their decisions are so questionable that their worth has dwindled to nothing - In short, that they are worthless. But, it goes on from there. Artists may bring their works before a jury of master artists to judge their worth. The judge is not only "grading" the character of that piece of work, but the talent of the artist. In that light, when we make a declaration that someone is worthless, we are becoming the judge of the One Who formed them. The greater judge the lesser, not the other way around. We, at that point, have done EXACTLY what our enemy was only attempting - we have placed ourselves above, and the one we call our "Lord" we have placed beneath us. Lucifer and all his company were removed for attempting that!! And we dare, who call ourselves His Own, to walk that same path!!! And then 30 seconds after we have done it, we expect to run into the arms of our Loving Father like such a treason never happened!!! What have we, in this culture, come to??? This is VERY SERIOUS. They are made in His image. His blood was shed for them. They are precious in His eyes. Yes, it is wrong, but that does NOT change Who made them. Yes, He may be calling us to do something constructive about their actions. But, He does not make junk. May we know His heart.

Sis, I truly wish I could relay the why we should be more careful. I understand that many here could careless for my comments on this. But still, in this thread, I made an oberservation that no one has yet to adress. If this thread were put into the prayer request thread would the conversation be different. Or is this "just" news. You spoke of the damage to the name of Christ in the eyes of the world, did you intercede for the eyes of the world? Honestly sis, I dont know why this is in me in such a way. You think I just dont want the saints to judge...come on. I dont want the saints to come under the same judgement by which we dish out. Thank you Ruck and Scarlet for making this issue clear. I have been struggling with that in the last few weeks as well. There is such a very fine line between acknowledging and discussing reality, which is often unpleasant and would not typically be called "edifying" and down right gossip. Speaking negative facts one time to explain the reality of the situation is done often in both the Old and New Testaments, and is certainly not only acceptable, but in some cases absolutely required to shake a person out of denial so they might face the truth either about that particular situation, or about themselves. Obviously, when one speaks in the Spirit, it results in life; while speaking in the flesh results in death - not just for ourselves, but it spreads like a cancer throughout His Body, killing all in its path. The question, then, is how, on these boards, when we are not present with each other to sense our spirits, are we to sense the spirit of a thread? What guidelines can we use for self-government? Matthew may be helpful. Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. I was asked to do an extensive study on this by one whom I was discipling. It was amazing. To call another a fool in Hebrew is to make a statement that their decisions are so questionable that their worth as a being has dwindled to nothing - In short, that they are worthless. But, it goes on from there. Artists may bring their works before a jury of master artists to judge their worth. The judge is not only "grading" the character of that piece of work, but the talent of the artist. In that light, when we make a declaration that someone is worthless, we are becoming the judge of the One Who formed them. The greater judge the lesser, not the other way around. We, at that point, have done EXACTLY what our enemy was only attempting - we have placed ourselves above, and the one we call our "Lord" we have placed beneath us. Lucifer and all his company were removed for just thinking that!! And we dare, who call ourselves His Own, to walk that same path!!! And then 30 seconds after we have done it, we expect to run into the arms of our Loving Father like such a treason never happened!!! What have we, in this culture, come to??? This is VERY SERIOUS. So, now we have the extremes - We must walk in truth, yet We dare not even think that ANYONE He created and died for is worthless!!! But where is that line that is so thin that we do not even notice that we have crossed it? Is is alright to vent? We must surely be able to discuss their actions in order to discern wisdom - Or must we? One church absolutely refused to discuss any negative allegations - and I learned so very, very much about prayer and discernment during that time. But, there was also much in that church that needed healing that seemed to go festering. Are we to make comments about the actions of others? We can never really know the entire story, even those involved do not know the entire story - He alone does. Perhaps we are to use these instances as parables and we only have freedom to comment on the principles involved. This story certainly has many principles any one of which would make healthy thread discussion. Divorce - abuse - publicity - courts - relationships/private&public - and so much more that we really have not touched on yet, here. No, it is not "wrong" to post the thread - we need to know the truth. But, discerning, as we all should, with each breath, whether we are functioning in His Spirit or our own, that is so very much harder. I cannot think of an instance in which it would ever be inappropriate be concerned about that issue. (I suppose some master manipulator could use it to bring confusion - that would be something the enemy would love to do. But I do not see that happening here.) So, any public or private comments about this would be appreciated. Of course, the public ones in this thread would need to be related to this very sad situation. May He be with them. May we allow our Father grow us into all that He created us to be.

INFANT DISCOVERED IN BARN; CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES LAUNCH PROBE Nazareth Carpenter Being Held On Charges Involving Underage Mother Bethlehem, Judea - Authorities were today alerted by a concerned citizen who noticed a family living in a barn. Upon arrival, Family Protective Service personnel, accompanied by police, took into protective care an infant child named Jesus, who had been wrapped in strips of cloth and placed in a feeding trough by his 14-year old mother, Mary of Nazareth. During the confrontation, a man identified as Joseph, also of Nazareth , attempted to stop the social workers. Joseph, aided by several local shepherds and some unidentified foreigners, tried to forestall efforts to take the child, but were restrained by the police. Also being held for questioning are three foreigners who allege to be wise men from an eastern country. The INS and Homeland Security officials are seeking information about these who may be in the country illegally. A source with the INS states that they had no passports, but were in possession of gold and other possibly illegal substances. They resisted arrest saying that they had been warned by God to avoid officials in Jerusalem and to return quickly to their own country. The chemical substances in their possession will be tested. The owner of the barn is also being held for questioning. The manager of Bethlehem Inn faces possible revocation of his license for violating health and safety regulations by allowing people to stay in the stable. Civil authorities are also investigating the zoning violations involved in maintaining livestock in a commercially-zoned district. The location of the minor child will not be released, and the prospect for a quick resolution to this case is doubtful. Asked about when Jesus would be returned to his mother, a Child Protective Service spokesperson said, "The father is middle-aged and the mother definitely underage. We are checking with officials in Nazareth to determine what their legal relationship is. Joseph has admitted taking Mary from her home in Nazareth because of a census requirement. However, because she was obviously pregnant when they left, investigators are looking into other reasons for their departure. Joseph is being held without bond on charges of molestation, kidnapping, child endangerment, and statutory rape. Mary was taken to the Bethlehem General Hospital where she is being examined by doctors. Charges may also be filed against her for endangerment. She will also undergo psychiatric evaluation because of her claim that she is a virgin and that the child is from God. The director of the psychiatric wing said, "I don't profess to have the right to tell people what to believe, but when their beliefs adversely affect the safety and well-being of others - in this case her child - we must consider her a danger to others. The unidentified drugs at the scene didn't help her case, but I'm confidant that with the proper therapy regimen we can get her back on her feet." A spokesperson for the governor's office said, "Who knows what was going through their heads? But regardless, their treatment of the child was inexcusable, and the involvement of these others frightening. There is much we don't know about this case, but for the sake of the child and the public, you can be assured that we will pursue this matter to the end." Edit: This email made the rounds several years ago. At the time, it was clearly making the statement that our government should abide by its constitutional limits. In this (what we once considered an overly extreme - but now it has been multiplied by over 400) case, the "government" would have indeed overstepped its bounds, invading privacy, splitting up families, making accusations without proof, guilty until proven innocent, holding innocents without cause all because of one call from one who knew nothing of the situation.

There is a difference between not seeing yourself as a looser - We are conquerors in Him - and pride. Truth is believing what He says about you - We are conquerors in Him. We tend to think of pride as thinking only 'too highly' of ourselves. Pride can also be having a low opinion of yourself because you refuse to believe what He has said about you. I think pride is not the whether the thought of yourself is "high" or "low" but more, how MUCH (quantity) you think of yourself. I think pride may well be more related to selfishly dwelling on ourselves beyond the point that is required for reasonable functioning. In that sense, encouraging those who are discouraged is not necessarily feeding their pride. It is the spirit behind the encouragement, and the heart with which it is received that can be pride. I don't know if that particular situation can be expressed second hand in a short posting well enough to be accurately discerned here. In these things, it is the Spirit, and not the law, that must be discerned - Very difficult. Even when you are witnessing the situation, it often takes a gift of discernment to see the real truth behind what is happening.

For them and for you. Bless you

Firstborn daughters too... Yep, definitely firstborn daughters, too. The enemy has always desired to steal and destroy what has been set aside for the Father, and it is certainly intensifying. Thanks for the insight and some confirmation. So, BFP, you are not alone, and you are in our prayers.

May our Father protect and reward her for her stand for righteousness. May our Father forgive us for not being the salt we should be.

Excellent answer to the question which was posted. I would only add that should they church be one that does make a stand against pants/trousers, or, should they be in a community where this might be an issue, the women of the church might encourage her enthusiasm for visitation by giving her a gift of several appropriate dresses. 1 Corinthians 8:1

Sweetie, the prodical son never stopped being his son. They were just out of fellowship, but never out of relationship. Precious Daughter of the King of kings, Angelique, I lived for several years as a Christian who believed that I could loose my salvation. I was continually terrified by the possibility. It took years, but after MUCH study, I am convinced, the issue is one of trust. His ways are so far above our ways, that we simply cannot understand them all. But, we can know that He loved us enough to create us. Even after we (mankind) became traitors in the garden of Eden, He continued to love us enough to leave His glory, and come to be one of us, to die a most miserable and humiliating death, that we might have the opportunity to be His Own. Even now, this very instant, He lives to intercede for you, personally. His nature is Love, pure, unadulterated Love. He loves you, and has proven it over and over. Rest in His Love and care. Trust Him to keep you, as you trusted Him to save you. Psalm 100:3 Know ye that the LORD He is God: it is He that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are His people, and the sheep of His pasture. Over and over our Father compares us to His sheep. A sheep is totally powerless, and relies on the shepherd for everything. We can not make ourselves. We can not save ourselves. We can not keep ourselves. Without Him, we can do nothing. John 15:5 He alone created us, He alone saved us, He alone keeps us. We are totally dependent on the One Who created us in His image, Who humbled Himself to die for us, Who lives to intercede for us. Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them. Romans 8:32 He that spared not His Own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Dear unred, Fruit is not the only evidence of truth, but it does stand as a witness to confirm. You have talked in generalities about apathy. I have seen apathy in all churches. I have also seen churches who defined "busy - ness" as good fruit, but too often, it was just an attempt to earn a place in heaven, motivated by fear and selfishness and without spirit and life. Specific fruits: I lived in abject terror for the first 7 years of my Christian life. I had known for 3 years prior to my salvation that I was unsaved, and the fear of being lost increased with each year. The instant I received Him, He replaced that fear with a joy that was so evident that people would stop me and ask me what had happened. But that was short lived; it was replaced by the terror that I would loose my salvation; a constant fear that I might have done something to be "unsaved". It was even worse than being lost, for now I had known His peace and joy, and understood better what was at stake. I was usually functional, but I did not have the abundant life, no joy, no peace, only confusion and terror. I did not know His peace and joy until I learned to trust Him to keep me, just as I had trusted Him to save me. In contrast, I had the dearest of friends who would not be convinced. He believed that he had done something that the Father could not forgive, that he had lost his salvation and was doomed to hell. He lost all hope in life, and began to look to "the usually things" for comfort. He spiraled downward, out of control, destroying all those in his path. I cannot tell you the heartache it has left for so many. Apathy is not good, but this was fruit from the pit of hell, begun because he thought he had to keep himself, and could not trust the Savior, the Lover of His soul to keep him. May you trust Him to keep you.

For starters, we, His bride, need to get serious about being in His Word, consistently, daily. We need to treat our relationship with Him as a "real" relationship, similar to being engaged (remember, We are His bride, waiting for the wedding), spending time both talking and listening. As He lives through us more each day, both we and our environment change - We are the salt of the earth. Salt keeps the decay at bay. As we do these things, He will direct our paths and give us the strategy. I know we all know this. But I also believe that if His body was really committed to this, as if our lives depended on this, or as if we were really His fiancee, we would have less decay in our world, and more victory. (I'm talking to myself, too). Some testimonies: http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?show...p;#entry1150638 PS. Thanks for being patient with us "hi-jackers" of your thread. Hope you get it back, now!! Edit: How can you be so fast? I started writing this IMMEDIATELY after I posted, and there are 3 posts between!!! (of course, there were a couple PMs with 4given1 while I was writing---- and you are posting here too!!!! I've been had!!)

The 'typical' predator has 300 victims before he is caught. Is it possible this is a one time deal? Of course, anything is possible, but the odds are about 1 in 300 that this is his first time. He was on the net talking about immoral topics with a teenage girl, (that alone should be considered inappropriate), he made the arrangements, he went to the house with intention, he has asked for forgiveness.... all that we know points to his actual intention and guilt. He did not stand trial, why? It may well be that there is more that he did not want to have revealed, and this route was safer for him. Do we know this for a fact? No, but his own actions indicate this. I know it goes against our perceptions of what a 'pervert' or 'predator' is, but often they are the charming, intelligent ones, the ones we would trust most and suspect least. Those who are less socially and mentally adept are less likely to be given such privileged access to ones we hold so dear, they are less likely to be able to charm a teen into their confidence. Should he be running for office? Should we allow anyone who runs to evil and not away from it to be in authority over His bride? Those in "the public eye" have unprecedented opportunity to participate in sexual sin. He is not guilty of mooning, or an inappropriate teenage romance decades ago. This was recently. This man's behavior is typical of a predator. As Christians, if we see someone on a destructive path, and we allow them to go to destruction with no warning, their blood is on our hands. An alcoholic should avoid going into bars, for it is a place of nearly certain destruction for them. One who is drawn to sexual sins should not be in public office, for it is a place of nearly certain destruction for them. Proverbs 24:11

The greatest scientific discoveries have usually been made by people who knew how to listen to Him explain His creation. If we try to figure it out on our own, we usually get it wrong, for His ways are above our ways! Colossians 1:17 All things are created by Him, and in Him, and He is before all things, and in Him all things have their being. I can't find it now, but one version reads more like: in Him all things hold together. So, yes, it does not matter what it is, it is ALWAYS rooted in the spiritual. Our health, physical or mental, is also of Him, and He alone completely understands all the intricacies of all the systems He alone designed. We, as humans created in His image, may have discovered a portion of insight here or there. We may go to specialists who may have more understanding in some areas than we do to get their opinions. But too often their own sin of presumption and arrogance lead them to incorrect conclusions. Yes, we may consider their counsel, but we alone are responsible for our decisions. The key is to act on the knowledge that it IS all spiritual, and He alone can accurately guide us through the maze.

this post needs to go down in the worthy hall of fame. it matters not what the problem is, or whether it's biological, chemical, environmental, or anything else. JESUS is the answer, and that IS biblical. and for the record, i think shrinks all need to have their heads examined. (no offense to any shrinks here!) the field of psychology, and of psychiatry, along with their answers and cures for all the world's ills, changes every few years. its all "pop" psychology... whatever is popular with the social climate of the day. there is only one true cure, and that is Jesus. whether it's transgender-ism, or schizophrenia... Jesus is the Healer of all conditions. Amen!

We once thought that no one who had committed adultery could win office, either.

I would tend to agree, just keep in mind, there is balance to be considered as well. I also know of times when less is simply selfish, lazy, and/or a rebellious refusal to communicate with others with whom you are to be dealing. Silence, too, can be used as a weapon to undermine someone or force them to take a responsibility that belongs to you. Those the Father sets as watchmen, prophets, teachers, evangelists, etc. are told that they will have blood on their hands if they do not speak to sound a warning that might turn others from the destructive path on which they travel. Some of us are able to enjoy talking fluently and publicly, we are to receive it as His gift and not refuse it. But, it can only be used as His when we understand the principles related to it and use it as He directs. It is like food. It is necessary for our survival. One can limit consumption to that which is required for survival, but people of only skin and bones do not usually have an abundant life. One can also relish the tastes and textures and become so large that a hole must be cut in the house so the person can leave. Neither extreme is healthy. It is only as we understand the principles and follow His leading that we can use this gift for an abundant life and to bless others.

He is arranging sex with a teen, and he knows it. He goes to her house, he knows why he is going. He asks for forgiveness. All sounds like guilt to me. No, we are not to judge the value of people, for that ultimately puts us as judge of the One who made them. We are each created in His image, He died for us; our worth, our value is beyond description. But it is imperative, in these times especially, that we use discernment to know right from wrong; to flee from evil. We should seriously question our relationships with those who have a history of running to evil rather than away from it, especially when we are considering placing them in positions where they might have authority over His Own. I have known men who have been predators. They have been charming, charismatic, loving, leaders in their church, community and/or group; dear and loyal friends. One, in particular, was one of the most influential teachers in the community. He taught in the "at risk" school, had foster children, handled crisis unbelievably well, brought our Savior into public school classrooms in appropriate ways, amazingly gifted. Yet, the evidence was undeniable. In another instance, one of the children was my own; the predator was the closest of family friends. Years ago, this sin was actually more prominent in the church than in the world. (It may be that the world has caught up by now.) Drinking, smoking, drugs, etc. are more likely to be found out, they are more likely to leave tell tale signs, smell, appearance, etc. This is a 'secret' sin, it is the victims that are more likely to show the signs, but most people dismiss them as rebellion or behavior disorders, and look no further. The predator has only to carefully manage his time and relationships with his victims, and he will rarely be discovered. In fact, the average predator has over 300 victims before he is found out; usually, when the children are no longer children, and he no longer is able to have control over them. It has become so ingrained in them by that time, that they are rarely rehabilitated. Of course, nothing is impossible for our Father. I personally believe that the solution is not in the sex-offender list, but in learning to trust our Father. In the dear family friend instance, before I married, before I had children, I felt that I should break the friendship, felt the Father had given me scripture as guidance. I also believed in the safety of counsel. I went to my pastor for confirmation, and he told me I was reading too much into the scripture, that this man came from a well respected family in the community, that he had a good reputation,....... It took many years, but I eventually learned. The pastor was wrong, I had heard correctly from my Father, and my family and I paid dearly, beyond words, for the mistake of listening to man. The basic problem is that we tend to rely on "the government" for our protection, rather than our Father, Who alone knows the truth of the situation. As a result of our dependence, we (as a society) have begun to demand that the government provide services that are only to be provided by our Father; a very dangerous trend. His body alone can reverse that trend, but will we?

Additional pondering... The opposite of foolish is fear of the L-RD. When Solomon begins his book of Proverbs, it starts with a statement of the purpose of the book - to know wisdom and instruction. The next paragraph states that the first step is to fear the L-RD. The paragraph which IMMEDIATELY follows starts with a command "Do not consent if sinners entice thee... " How interesting. Seems as if once we define the goal, set our hearts on the direction to pursuing that goal, that the VERY next thing we must do is learn to say NO to all that would distract us. HMMMM.... Also, edify is related to the word edifice: 1. a building, esp. one of large size or imposing appearance. (dictionary.com) Seems most of the edifices I know are built of stone, not wood. Hmmmm.... So, the word is definitely rooted in the building/construction trade. My guess is that common cultural knowlege (if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all, and such) would be roughly equivalent to the foundation needed for a 800 sq.ft. frame house on a slab: definitely sufficient shelter for the majority of weather for a small family. Using a concordance (I use Strong's) to find verses that relate and looking up those verses and the definitions of some of the key words probably strengthens the foundation to a 2.5 story, 2,400 sq.ft. brick home with a usable basement; bigger and more solid. But, you love to talk, and your concern is about work, these may not be sufficient. Perhaps you are being called to build an edifice? All the ones I'm aware of are stone, and much bigger than a house - one dictionary used cathedral as an example. It may be that no one else in the environment understands that each conversation is "building" a framework within which relationships are developed and work is done. If that is true, there is no 'general contractor' to inspect the quality of the materials used for the building: no one to say that the wood is for scaffolding and forms, but is not for the edifice; that only the stone is for the structure. But, if He is calling you to be the general contractor for an edifice, the first thing that is required is to dig deep. I have heard some skyscrapers have a foundation that goes down 14 stories!!! If that is the case, this has only scratched the surface. I am working on a site that will help with digging foundations (Bible Study, etc.) If you are interested, PM me or click on the link in my signature for more information) So, what might a 'general contractor' in this situation do? Some have found that just ignoring the off-color humor, criticism, etc. is enough to squelch it in their presence. You need to be very good at changing the conversation to a topic of interest quickly to do that. I'm not good at that, I tend to be more direct, not usually at the time, but go to the offender afterwards privately - but that is not always effective. What seems to be best for me is to try to structure the environment more. Here are two examples I have seen work well. I was part of a team of contractors, some of whom had been with the project throughout its life cycle. We were now preparing for the "grave" part of the project, and the team was being "redistributed" to other departments. Because we were contractors, our seniority was based on the time with a team, not the amount of time with the company with which we were assigned. So, we would all become the first to be let go in a downsizing, after having worked several years as a team on this project. But, we still had to work for a couple months closing down a project/team to which we had all become attached. It would have been easy to succumb to the thought: what is the point of finishing tasks for a project that is being buried - why not just have a bonfire and walk away? Not the most joyful work environment, layoff seemed imminent. We made a list of tasks that needed to be accomplished. Each time one was accomplished, we celebrated for about 15-30 min. - justs a tad longer than a typical cigarette break in that company. I'm not a drinker, so I don't know what they were, but I bought a set of stemware, one for each person on the team, and a bigger matching one for the person who had accomplished the task. We stocked up on non-alcoholic fruit "wines" - bubblies. The closer the end came, the more we laughed and celebrated - enough that others in the building - knowing our situation - still came up to us and expressed a desire to be on our team!!! That was a critical key to getting the team through that depressing and potentially paralyzing period. An example that is probably more applicable for you: a man wanted to focus his team on delivering early, within budget, and beyond requirements and expectations; that required teamwork, creativity, lots of hard work and a positive attitude. He developed a "knock their socks off award" that he gave to those who had delivered these things. He would buy the very smallest baby socks, publicly award them and "pin" them to the outside of the cubicle as a trophy. As you walked through his department, those baby socks were a continual reminder of the values he wanted to encourage at work. Hope this help! May you be richly blessed!

What a great example. The older I get, the less I talk. As with any of our freedoms, it is not just about "is it allowable", but "does it edify" -- another way of saying - is it necessary. There is some small talk and games that may seem "unnecessary", but are actually helping building the relationship by tearing down walls; so this is not always easy to discern. 1 Corinthians 10:23

I agree, this is an excellent topic. Thanks, tigger!! And thanks glory for mentioning it. You are a gem.

Right this instant, many things in the natural (not moral) sense, appear to be better than the past for most of us in the West. However, there have been more Christian martyrs in the last 100 years than at any other time in history. There are currently an average of 465 Christians killed per DAY, according to: http://www.gospelweb.net/modernmartyrsindex.htm I do think we were given a brief reprieve for a few decades in the West. But for years I have been hearing that we are following the same path that Germany followed prior to WWII. Naomi Wolf has documented some of this (search for her name on youtube.com - I recommend the one that is about 45 min. long) In summary, she describes 10 steps to the death of a free country; we have already passed 9 of the steps. She happens to be "liberal", I am not, and I urge you to overlook those things with which you do not agree, and listen to the warning steps, which she clearly documents, and signs that are happening in this country. I do not agree with all her conclusions (who is behind this), but her general message agrees with what I have researched, seen and heard. Through the years, like her, I was prompted by those familiar with pre-war Germany to read of its history. I have received most of my information from historians, from "republicans", the "right", and from Christians. Warning signs started decades ago, increased during the Clinton years, and continue to grow in intensity and frequency. I cannot tell you how chilling it is to read the history of pre-WWII Germany and see the same wording in speeches, the same degradation of life and sexuality, the same rise in prisons,.... I suggest her video, as she has put it together into a coherent presentation better than anyone else that I am aware of. This is not a political thing, a "left" or "right" thing; both agree that there are well documented warnings. This is about the war of the ages, between our Father and his enemy. He has provided watchmen who are sounding the trumpet, (Ezekiel 3:17, 33:6-7) that His bride might wake from her sleep. If she does not waken, it appears we are in for severe persecution. I urge you to do your own research. What if this is right? He is eternally faithful. This is not to lead to fear of man, but to a righteous fear of the Almighty: that we might fall on our faces in repentance. May He have mercy on us. PS - She states we are in a democracy. We are not, we are in a republic; there is a HUGE difference!

So GLAD things are better today! (So it wasn't about the him not doing the laundry, huh!?!?) I have learned that one of the ways He loves us is to give us living examples. I have found that when I am having challenges with someone, I'll run to my Father. He will often show me that He is as hurt over me as I am over them! He allowed the challenge (that they were treating me the way I was treating my Father) so that I could see my own self better. Don't know that it applies, but it doesn't hurt to ask Him.