wingnut-

Exactly, so how can it be then that they are the 10 horns if they don't re-enter the land until that time? Also, how can they be the remnant of God's and be opposed to Him as you are suggesting? Unless I am misunderstanding something here.

Hello breath of life, I wouldn't say what you present is completely without merit, however, there are some serious obstacles that have not yet been touched on by you. So let's start with the 10 tribes that were lost. One of those tribes is Benjamin, who were part of the southern kingdom. When the Assyrian invasion began, they slowly picked the northern kingdom apart, bit by bit. Samaria in the land of Ephraim was the last stronghold to fall for the northern kingdom, but the conquest did not end there. The southern kingdom was invaded also, and if not for Sennacherib's arrogant mocking of God it would have fallen as well. The only city left to be conquered was Jerusalem itself, which God preserved. This left the two tribes of Judah and Levites, because the Levites being priests lived amongst the other tribes but the larger portion in Jerusalem where the temple was. So those other 10 tribes went into exile in Assyria, which stretched from Egypt up along the Great Sea nearly reaching the Black Sea to the north before horseshoeing around and back down to the Persian Gulf. The Israelites were scattered and dispersed all across that region, while other peoples from other conquered nations were redistributed into the land of the lost tribes. Now, the biggest problem you have is reconciling what the prophets have to say regarding those nations, and when it is they return to the land. Here is one such example I speak of. Isaiah 11:11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. 12 He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. 14 But they shall swoop down on the shoulder of the Philistines in the west, and together they shall plunder the people of the east. They shall put out their hand against Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites shall obey them. 15 And the Lord will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt, and will wave his hand over the River with his scorching breath, and strike it into seven channels, and he will lead people across in sandals. 16 And there will be a highway from Assyria for the remnant that remains of his people, as there was for Israel when they came up from the land of Egypt. Now, explain how that works for us. Exactly when do you see this taking place in the timeline? God bless

Thanks for the clarification, I cannot disagree with your conclusion as stated.

Hmmmmmm Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Well, if its any consolation I shook off the teaching I was raised under in regards to eschatology, so nothing pre-programmed here. As for the preterist view, I do in fact reject it. In fact, your claim that what Peter wrote in the passage I posted was speaking to something that already happened doesn't hold up under scrutiny, Peter is speaking about a future event. He isn't speaking to them in regards to something that has happened, but something that will happen. Take the very first sentence for example. II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Now, if Peter were speaking about something that had already taken place, he would have written something like this. But the day of the Lord came like a thief, and the heavens passed away with a roar, the heavenly bodies were burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works done on it were exposed. Big difference between the two, as you can see. God bless

Well, this is how I view it taking into account whom is being addressed in the passage. Jeremiah 31:20 Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he my darling child? For as often as I speak against him, I do remember him still. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him, declares the Lord. 21 “Set up road markers for yourself; make yourself guideposts; consider well the highway, the road by which you went. Return, O virgin Israel, return to these your cities. 22 How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man.” For the majority of this chapter, the Lord is addressing Ephraim, which earlier on in the chapter is referred to as His firstborn. Now keep in mind the Assyrian exile, where the northern kingdom was taken into captivity and the 10 tribes became "lost". The final stronghold to fall in that conflict was Samaria, which was within the borders of Ephraim's portion of land. Now consider this chapter from Ezekiel, though I'm only going to post the beginning segment, the rest I recommend reading on your own. Ezekiel 23 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. 3 They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled. 4 Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem. So, to answer your general point as I incorporate all the information available to us in scripture regarding Israel, and how God designates them, I see the woman encircling the man to be speaking to these two daughters in Ezekiel returning to God and resettling the area cities surrounding New Jerusalem. I also think these two sisters factor into the understanding of the woman in Revelation 12 and 17. God bless

It is fair to call it an assumption, I wouldn't disagree with that. However the term elder is not unique to Revelation, and it is only used in regards to human beings any other time it is used. As far as timing goes, it doesn't conflict with timing on my end. God bless

Tell that to Peter, or any number of the OT prophets. II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. God bless

Brother you can believe whatever you want to believe, doesn't matter to me. You can call it an inappropriate interpretation, highlight words like poor, and whatever else you wish to do, I will just stick with the understanding I am led to, regardless of whether you like it or not. I could go on and on about how poor or inappropriate it is to try and dismiss that this clearly states AFTER and you want to pretend it doesn't. I'm sure you've noticed there are 24 elders in heaven before, but I don't recall ever seeing how you believe they got there. God bless

This is one of the most encouraging posts I've seen in years, thanks. God bless

John is reporting the Revelation of Jesus Christ regarding the end times, in which there are only 2 resurrections, one for the living (believers dead or alive), and one for the dead (unbelievers). I understand you don't see this yet, but here are a couple of questions for you to consider. First, how did the 24 elders get to heaven? At what point were they resurrected? The next question is related to your reference to the parables, where we are told the tares are gathered first. The thing to keep in mind here is the process by which wheat is harvested. The field is cut down, and the wheat is left to sit in the sun for 3 days before it produces the finishing touches to bring forth the finest grain. So the harvest itself of the wheat is not when it is gathered, but when the field is cut. Now, considering this and what we are told by John in Revelation regarding the gathering of the elect and their resurrection coming before the resurrection of the tares, doesn't that indicate that the resurrection is not the moment in which the gathering of the tares occurs? What happens to an unbeliever when they die? Where do they go? Perhaps that is the question to be answered. God bless

When I was a teen my church brought some guy in to speak to the youth group. He had a bunch of fancy equipment and tried convincing everyone that there were messages on the music. It was nothing but garbled noise to my ears, I think people hear what they want to hear with that stuff. As far as lyrics themselves, they are pretty straightforward, some are blatantly wrong, some are a little more disguised, and some are straight from the bible. God bless

Next year I have to get mine when my current license expires.

Not a fan of heavy metal, and there are plenty of rock bands I don't care for because of the lyrics. But, there are many that I do like and enjoy listening to. God bless

Because it is speaking to what is accomplished as a result, upon completion. Why does it specify it comes AFTER? Because it does maybe? I mean, you would have to ask God why He arranges things the way He does.

Brother, I just want to illustrate how this entire segment takes place following the resurrection. Matthew 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!” 55 There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him, 56 among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. Compare it with what takes place at the tomb of Jesus. Matthew 28 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. And what the guards did. Matthew 28:11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. 12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers 13 and said, “Tell people, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day. The veil was torn after, the earthquake came after, the tombs opened after, the saints rose after. The guards realized He was God, they ran and told what they saw and the elders bought their silence and spread a lie. God bless

You've already received great advice from many brothers and sisters, I am adding my voice of agreement to their words. You are in my prayers, God bless you.

Not really clear on what you mean here, can you give an example?

Revelation 13: 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. I agree, I have sat in many sermons over the years and felt the power of the Spirit in many messages, as well as on occasions in smaller, more personal settings. However, I have heard other things from these same individuals that were instantly rejected by the Holy Spirit in me because they were contrary to scripture, and not from God. God bless

We're all good brother, no worries. No. For the sake of clarity, let me say it like this. Not everyone who is a teacher was chosen to be a teacher by God. Being a teacher does not make one qualified to teach every known subject under the sun. Whether someone is or is not a teacher because God wants them to be one is not something anyone else can possibly determine. God bless

I see it the same way, He gathers us as He is coming. It's not exactly post-trib, maybe an hour or so before, from there it depends on how long it takes Him to deal with the wicked. From what can be gleaned in the OT from the prophets, it doesn't appear to me it will take very much time, so I see most of the wrath being poured out rather quickly. God bless

Matthew 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” 9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) Paul quotes from Psalm 68 in the Ephesians passage.

Marilyn, you may want to ask a certain individual how one of the 24 elders are there to speak if this takes place before Christ has risen. Revelation 5: 5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

This was one of the songs played at my father's funeral, I don't think I've listened to it since that day, brought back the same emotion. God bless

I was. I guess this is where the misunderstanding began, because I had only posted from Revelation, and wordsword only responded to Revelation. Not that I'm not willing to discuss any of the books you mentioned, but to that point no one was. Big difference, I am encouraging people to seek the truth for themselves, as God instructs us. I reject the notion that any follower of Christ has more access to the truth than another, that we should simply swallow whatever pill someone else hands us. Any teacher that comes and claims they are the only ones with knowledge should be disregarded, and anyone that claims someone they follow has all the knowledge should be disregarded. No, actually what I did was called refuting. When something contradicts what God says, I tend to point that error out. I don't want anyone to receive anything of mine, which is probably why I generally avoid saying much and let scripture do the talking. According to the post you gave a thumbs up to, we should not accept scripture "at face value". I wonder then how anyone can determine anything. If I can't accept Jesus saying, "I am the way, the truth, and the life" at face value, where does that leave me, or you? Really what that is code for is, let me twist everything into a knot, present my own truth, and you take it. That is why it takes someone defending pre-trib two pages to answer a yes or no question, or to explain away something that is clearly written. I will continue to tell people not to swallow that pill, because we do not serve a God of confusion. False teaching is a serious problem in the church today, and many come away disheartened with gathering together, blaming the teachers they chose to follow. In truth, it is their own doing, if one wants to have a relationship with God then they are going to have to make some effort and read the very words He arranged for us to live by. If we don't know them, it is by choice. So to put it plainly, don't receive what I say, receive what the Spirit says. You engaged me, you included the very post in which you did with your last snapshot. My general rule of thumb when I post is to address the OP, it is their thread after all. When someone else chooses to engage me in discussion I will indulge them as long as it doesn't stray too far from the topic. I wouldn't hold my breath, doesn't interest me in the least. God bless