wingnut-

God bless you gentle fawn, so happy to hear the good report. I am sorry if you were upset by anything that I said on your thread, will keep you in my prayers. I am always available if you need to talk.

You bring up an excellent point with this passage from Zechariah. I agree not all of the Jews leave Jerusalem as they were told to do, the why would seem to be because they didn't listen, or didn't know scripture enough to recognize it was time to leave. Perhaps they are prisoners, or perhaps they just remained unseen through the mayhem, we can only speculate. What we do know is that they were not caught up in the gathering, and we know this because they are still here when Jesus touches down. There is only one group of survivors in Jerusalem that give glory to God, and these would appear to be the people who will inhabit the millennial kingdom in their natural state. They are not all Jews though, and this is made clear through the OT prophecies that tell us that it is not only some Jews that inhabit the millennial kingdom, but there are other nations from that region who also inhabit the millennial kingdom, such as Egypt and Assyria. Keep in mind that Jerusalem is in possession of the Gentiles for this time period, so the half of the city that escapes through the mountain pass are not only Jews, just like the half that is killed are not only Jews. The half that is killed may not be Jews at all, but some of the survivors have to be from more than one ethnicity based on the inhabitants of the millennial kingdom. God bless

It's really not a problem, you only have two options here. They are either believers being gathered, or they are unbelievers being gathered. There are multiple accounts of believers being gathered in scripture, this is simply not the case with unbelievers. Granted, we do see the dragon, beast, and false prophet send out three unclean spirits to gather their army for the battle of the great day of God Almighty in Revelation 16. However, this gathering is to march on Jerusalem just prior to Jesus' coming. So what we have are believers and unbelievers being gathered at approximately the same time, the unbeliever first, the believer soon after. They are all going to the exact same battle, and the exact same place. Luke refers to the eagles being gathered, and what we see in Revelation are birds being told to gather by the angel for the great supper of God which occurs when Jesus arrives on the white horse with His army. So what does Luke say exactly in verse 37, "Wheresoever the body is", to me it is a reference to the body of Christ. The army that the enemy gathers are from the ten kings, and an overall view of how this is done simply doesn't strike me as a supernatural gathering such as has been declared in scripture for believers. So I honestly do not believe Luke is describing anything different than Matthew did, just a different way of saying it, still putting them in the exact same place. The problem with it being unbelievers, why would only one be taken and one left? The comparison with Noah simply doesn't fit, because everyone outside of the ark died, not a 50/50 ratio, it was a 100% kill ratio. God bless

Well, I can't speak for those who believe it happens at their death, because they apparently aren't regarding the scripture which states we will all be changed at the same time. That being said, Paul does in fact tell us when this occurs in the following passage. I Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. At His coming, pretty definitive time frame. This is the first resurrection John speaks of in Revelation 20, because that is precisely what it is, a resurrection, as the passage in I Corinthians states. The GWTJ comes after the millennium, which is after the first resurrection. God bless

I don't disagree with this, we see the same thing happen in Matthew 27 following the only other mass resurrection recorded in the bible, so there certainly is an apparent connection between mass resurrections and earthquakes. Well, John quoted them saying it. Why do you think they are hiding and asking that mountains fall on them? Is it because they saw something that scared them that much, or just because they are skittish? Perhaps afraid of the dark? Obviously not, this happens much later than you believe. The two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years prior to this event. They ask this as a result of seeing something so terrifying they would rather have mountains fall on them than face it. They won't be asking it through the week because during the week they think the beast is all powerful, which is why they ask who can make war against him. They understand who can, once they realize the wrath of the Lamb is coming, which they will know about thanks to the two witnesses they thought they had seen the last of. Until of course their bodies rise with the rest, then the terror sets in. You don't see them hiding in caves asking mountains to fall on them when the beast comes on the scene do you? It's pretty clear who they fear most. There is no problem except with your understanding in regards to who is in heaven. That is where deceased people go upon death, their natural bodies remain on earth, and this is what is raised and made incorruptible at the gathering. We are all changed at the same time, and it happens in the air, which is where the clouds are found. The passage says from one end of heaven to the other, and Paul wrote this which you don't seem to want to accept. I Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. God is not bringing those who sleep from the earth, because God is not coming from earth, He is coming from heaven. You really need to make up your mind, you just argued this was for Jewish people several posts ago, the dispersion, remember? You might as well face the truth, there is only one group called the elect, and their names are found in the Book of Life. What does the bible say about them, chosen before the foundation of the world. Once those asleep and those who are alive and remain are gathered together, exactly, that is the marriage. The two become one, it is the scriptural definition of a marriage. John doesn't have to write what has been written so clearly in scripture, it should be rather obvious what a marriage covenant is and how it is defined. God bless

We don't get our new bodies on earth, Paul is clear on where this occurs. I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. I Thessalonians 4: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. I am not moving it anywhere, this is where scripture tells us it happens. Those who are alive and remain will be caught up, I would think that is fairly obvious from the passage. They are part of the body, so they will be caught up the same way anyone else that is alive and remain would be. It would appear they account for the majority of those who are alive and remain. It's not my timing, Paul is not vague at all about what he is telling us in I Corinthians 15, he dedicates an entire chapter to walking us through the change from the natural to the spiritual. He is also not vague about the fact we are all changed in the same moment, the twinkling of an eye. God bless

The age ends at the judgement, this is what Jesus says as an answer to the final question regarding the end of the age. It is found in the last part of Matthew 24 continuing into Matthew 25, where the sheep and goats are separated. You are trying to change that and place it earlier, but what Jesus said is the truth. I am quite certain He knows better than any person does, so I will go with His answer. The elect are and always have been believers, it has never changed. The inclusion of the Gentiles was prophesied about long ago in the OT. It was the same before Jesus died, consider Enoch, he was not a Jew, he pre-dates Israel. What you are forgetting is what it means to be grafted in, it is not something that can be simply undone when it seems convenient for you. Here are some pertinent things for you to consider. Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” You see, Abraham and Isaac weren't Jews either, Israel didn't even exist until Jacob wrestled with God. It's safe to say that they are elect though don't you think? Are they still part of Israel? According to scripture, yes, because they are elect. Jacob and Esau both come from Isaac, but Esau is not Israel, his descendants are Edom. It is the children of the promise that are counted as the seed, the children of the flesh are not the children of God. The only separation supported in scripture is clear, sons of God and sons of the devil. Abraham was the father of "many nations", not just one, and it was justification by faith. Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Belief and unbelief are the deciding factor, nothing more, nothing less. Only one way to obtain salvation my friend, Jesus Christ. Nor do I. People have all sorts of vivid imaginations, the group that flees to the wilderness are clearly from the nation of Israel. What you seem to be forgetting is that there are Messianic Jews who live in Israel, such as the steward of this forum. Jesus came to save the whole world though, not just one group, and considering this discourse comes from the same Holy Spirit, it is safe to say He understood the OT prophecies regarding the Gentiles and the whole grafting in bit. Priceless! I guess you suffer from tunnel vision and think that where you live represents all of Christianity. I hate to break it to you, but in places like Africa, Asia, the Middle East, etc., they don't believe in your theory, nor has it ever crossed their minds as a possibility. That is the difference between people who have never suffered real persecution and those who have. So if you think that is true, you better get over to these places and set them straight. Funny, it's important to understand something that doesn't apply to you. I guess when you see it you will understand. All those verses referring to the saints and you don't see it? Do you see this I wonder? Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’ A letter to a church, told not to fear what they are about to suffer. Thrown into prison by the devil, facing tribulation, until death. Do you see any chastisement of this church in the above? Revelation 2:23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. 24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— This to the church in Thyatira, look closely at verse 23. How is it that all the churches shall know if they are not here? And do you notice they must hold fast until He comes, and those who overcome until the end He gives power over the nations. The information is there, it appears to me you just don't want to see it. God bless

Continued prayers for the people of the Philippines.

Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

Hey nebula, really good to see you again, hope all is well. I think there are some points in this that I do agree with, but there are also many that are way off base in my opinion. Honestly, it sounds to me like this guy was a fire and brimstone type who did a lot of harm to relationships in his life, and now that he has found the damage to be irreparable he is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Things I would agree with are in regards to the self righteousness that springs out of so many, setting down their rules and requirements as though they speak for God themselves. Condemnation for those in opposition, sure, seen plenty of that. If you fail to agree, you are not welcome, not only within that church but off to hell you go as well. Yeah, seen plenty of that as well. Many churches have become cliquish, attempting to get involved exposes you to an ugliness one would not expect within Christianity, an almost politically driven type of atmosphere where to accomplish anything, you must conform to the ruling powers ways. This is one of the main reasons why at this point in my life, I do not get involved at church and prefer to remain anonymous in the back row. Things I do not agree with, cutting oneself off from fellowship completely in some kind of effort to avoid ugliness. Ugliness is everywhere in this world, there is no avoiding it unless one becomes a complete shut in. As the days in this world grow darker, our gathering together becomes even more important, perhaps more important now than it has ever been in the history of mankind. No, you won't find everything rosy inside any church you step inside, but the only real animosity that exists is that which we bring in ourselves. What I mean by that is this, if you step in the doors of a church you have never been in before, what wrong have they done but welcome you in? If you step in with negative expectations, that is precisely what you will find, so before stepping in, leave all baggage at the door. After all, isn't that what Jesus has done for us, wiped the slate clean? Another issue I disagreed with is this individual's position regarding God. Yes, He is indeed a loving God, but there is more to Him than that, and I dare not put Him in a box that appeals to my personal senses. There is indeed an eternal punishment, if that were not true then it would not be found in His Word. This gentleman wants to disrespect that Word so that he can throw out the things he doesn't like about it. The whole, "people worship the bible" mantra is a convenient excuse to disregard things that are clearly defined, such as an eternal punishment for those who oppose God. It may sound nice, and it may be just what many itching ears want to hear, but it is not true. Ignoring this is not an act of love toward anyone, it is quite the opposite. Putting the bible on trial is a foolish endeavor, and it is done by those who wish to abuse its teachings, most likely as this individual did during his ministry. The fact is, it is each individual believers responsibility to know God's Word themselves, and take responsibility for their own beliefs which should be founded on what the Holy Spirit teaches them through scripture. Blaming others for following crooked paths is about as sensible as walking off a bridge after someone else did and saying they made you do it too. We are instructed to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, not to have someone else work it out for us and follow them blindly. If one reads the bible for themselves, they would know there are numerous warnings about false teachings and false teachers, so this blindness is born of laziness. We are instructed to be sober and alert, but none of these instructions mean anything to those who don't bother to lift a finger. This gentleman also seems to find a flaw in doing things with the church, all the extra activities that many offer. His definition seems to be rather harsh, and leaves me wondering, what better things can a person do with their time? Is it better to go attend a concert praising the Lord, or sit at home and watch a few hours of television? He condemns the act of gathering together in such a manner, but offers no suggestions as to more positive alternatives. If I were going to write an article such as this, I would have suggested maybe people go minister at a homeless shelter, or spend time in a retirement home visiting the elderly, or maybe an orphanage. Surely since he finds filling one's time with church activities as such an offense he must have something better in mind, right? If he does, he failed to mention it. Honestly, what I see in his article, is a lot of bitterness. It sounds like he was not a good shepherd to me, and most likely lost his standing and his flock, perhaps lost personally as well, and now he is lashing out. That is how it reads to me anyway. God bless

Well how about we take a look at where you believe it happens and see what people know or don't know. Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Everyone on earth acknowledges what is about to happen to them. Hide us from the face of Him? Still wondering whether every eye will see Him when they are trying to hide from His face? This passage and your placement of it in the timing poses a serious issue with your timing. Either scripture is wrong, or your timing is wrong. So let's consider your argument, that this event happens with 7 years remaining. Everyone is hiding for 7 years? Compare the very last thing spoken by them, who is able to stand? At the midway point we see them asking this. Revelation 13:4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” How can they be asking this at the midway point if 3 1/2 years earlier they were asking who is able to stand against the wrath of the Lamb? Quite the contradiction. Unless I have misunderstood you, I am fairly certain you have said that the 6th seal is where the rapture occurs, so I will await the explanation. God bless

Yes, they ask when. Isn't that the basic understanding as to what we are waiting for? Jesus will come when the last believer comes to Him, we are waiting on the full number of the body to accept Christ. Jesus tells us when the age ends. It is the final question He answers that the disciples ask at the outset of Matthew 24. His answer concludes chapter 24 and carries over into chapter 25, and it has nothing to do with the gathering, it is all about the judgement. This is the end of the age, no reason to speculate. God bless

There is no sidestep, nor is there a problem with timing. The people following Him out of heaven are deceased and they make up a large portion of the bride, not the whole bride. The head is not joined with the body until those who are alive and remain meet Him in the air, then everyone gets their glorified body at that time. The issue seems to be that you don't want to address the multiple layers of heaven in scripture. There is the layer where God sits on His throne, the layer we refer to as outer space, and the layer above our heads which has clouds. Let me simplify it for you with this verse. Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, Now, where are these birds flying? The same place the gathering occurs, in the air, the layer of heaven with clouds. This response addresses several of your posts in regards to where we are gathered and such. God bless

There is no stretching here, it is simply taking what scripture teaches and applying it. The symbol of the thief is first introduced in scripture here. Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. This passage is the most illustrative picture we have of the rapture in all of scripture. One taken, one left behind, and it is attached to the thief symbol and His coming. I Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. Paul tells us the same thing in this passage that we are told in Matthew 24, people are eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage, going about their normal lives, peace and safety. The thief comes and sudden destruction follows this event, which is precisely what happens when He comes. It is time for judgement on unbelievers, sudden destruction, no escape. II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Peter tells us that as a result of the day of God, the heavens, the earth, and the elements will be on fire and melted with fervent heat. The very essence of "sudden destruction" wouldn't you say? What or who can escape that? We, according to His promise, is what Peter tells us, meaning the elect. And John tells us where that takes place within the detailed account of the end times. Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” Are you forgetting that His people have already fled? They are gone for the entire 3 1/2 year period of the great tribulation. Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. It's important to remember this fact. That is the group Hosea prophecies about being reconciled to God, part of the bride. Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles for this time period. Revelation 11: 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. There are a lot of things happening all at the same time, but keeping the amount of time they occur helps to make sense of things. God bless

I understand what Paul's calling was, and I understand why as well. Paul had dual citizenship and could operate within the Roman Empire in a manner the others could not. He was shielded by his Roman citizenship in a way the 11 were not as they were just Jewish citizens and did not have the money to buy Roman citizenship as some did. Apparently you did not recognize that the places Peter addresses in I Peter are Gentile cities, not Israel. I Peter 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Those are not cities in Israel, surely you are familiar with Galatia, there is an epistle to that church. It doesn't matter where the Lord used them, the fact is they all followed the same direction and did the same things. What they concluded at the council of Jerusalem is that the gospel was to be preached to everyone, and following that this is what they did. Start with the fact it is found in the gospel of Matthew which the church is entrusted to go out and preach about to the whole world. The suggestion that one chapter of a gospel is only for a specific group of people is absurd on that basis alone. Secondly, the word synagogue is nowhere to be found in Matthew 24 in the KJV, NKJV, ESV, NASB, or any other version of the bible I am looking at, so I have no idea why you keep trying to put it there. What verse is it you see synagogue in exactly? As for specific verses that don't align with your theory, here are some things to consider. Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), You read it right? So tell me, why do you need to understand about the AoD if you are not going to be here? Matthew 24:16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." So why would those specifically in Judea need to be told to flee if it was only for them in the first place? They were already given these instructions by the OT prophets. Then you have all these references to the elect. Matthew 24:22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. And Peter clearly defines the elect. I Peter 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. Jesus is the only way to salvation, and this scriptural truth speaks right to the heart of what makes one "elect." It's in the bible isn't it? God bless

That is certainly what has proven to be true over the course of time.

I did indeed misunderstand the point you were making, I apologize for my misunderstanding. We do in fact agree on the above.

Only for those who don't understand whom the elect is. From your viewpoint you argue that it is just Jews, which means you want to leave them out of the marriage. His chosen people Israel, excluded? Chosen means elect, so just to clarify who the elect is, refer back to something from my last post. I Peter 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. Now those are all Gentile people he is addressing as ELECT, according to what? Foreknowledge of God the Father. When does scripture say the elect are gathered again? Matthew 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..... pretty clearly defined wouldn't you say? Gathered at His coming, pretty clearly stated wouldn't you say? If not, here is some more Peter had to say about the elect. I Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. Same letter, written to the same Gentiles. Can't have a marriage until the head and body are joined together, which is what the gathering is all about. I don't know if you are actually expecting the pomp and circumstance of a wedding like we do here on earth, but the fact is, this is a metaphor. There's not going to be an actual ceremony John says this about the supper. Revelation 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” Again you are trying to read something into it, stating that those who are called to it are blessed does not indicate a time. Of course we know that the reception follows the wedding, so all we have to do is look at what occurs following the gathering. Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God," You can bring your fork if you want to, but I don't think the eating is meant for us. We're just blessed that we aren't the food. The marriage and the supper are simply metaphors, not the type of wedding we are accustomed to. I think your commentator is confused as to what is being said here. Husband is not the word in question, my master is, which is what they no longer call Him. Hosea 2:16 “And it shall be, in that day,” Says the Lord, “That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’ And no longer call Me ‘My Master,’ 17 For I will take from her mouth the names of the Baals, And they shall be remembered by their name no more. Hosea is very clear as to what will take place, that is the entire purpose behind God having him marry a harlot, he is reconciled to her. Hosea 2:“I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy; 20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, And you shall know the Lord. Chapter 3 in its entirety. Hosea 3 Then the Lord said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover and is committing adultery, just like the love of the Lord for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.” 2 So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver, and one and one-half homers of barley. 3 And I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man—so, too, will I be toward you.” 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter days. You can rest assured that Israel will be reconciled to her husband again, this was the entire purpose of Hosea's personal story. It does not mean killed as they were as in the same manner, it simply means they will be killed. Just like the first group was killed. Revelation indicates that some are beheaded, some are consumed by fire, doesn't matter how they die they are still martyrs. God bless

We are far apart on your false claim above, completely in opposition of scripture and I could not disagree more. Jesus did not cease being God when He came to be among us. Immanuel means 'God with us'. He certainly did know the beginning and the end, He will never cease being the Alpha and Omega. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Well, that is because you follow this false premise regarding the original 11 disciples and their calling, and only think Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles. It's long overdue to point out this false premise regarding the disciples though, so let's just examine what scripture says on the matter. Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." That's Jesus speaking to the original disciples. Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.” These were His instruction to Paul. There is no difference between them, which should be enough to convince anyone, but apparently it is not, so let's look at some more evidence. First let's see who was the first to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. And what happened when Peter explained what had taken place... Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” And from the council at Jerusalem.... Acts 15:6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” 12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; 17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.’ 18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” And what did they do following the council at Jerusalem... Acts 15:23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. And when Peter wrote, whom did he address.... I Peter 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. And John... Revelation 1:4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, The point is, their ministries were no different following the council at Jerusalem with one exception. Paul had dual citizenship, which permitted him to travel to areas the others could not have managed safely. He used this dual citizenship to his advantage on several occasions, and God used all of them to serve His purpose. Paul only traveled within the area that was part of the Roman Empire, he did not travel to North America, South America, Australia, or many other places. The gospel still reached all of those places. Of course I can, it appears in multiple places, one of which you noted above, here are the other two. Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues." Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” The symbol of the thief is of course attached to the most descriptive telling of the rapture from Matthew 24 Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. In regards to the marriage issue, it is not that complicated when you consider what a marriage is. In western cultures we gather in a church with family and friends and watch a bride and groom stand up front with a pastor. We tend to view the covenant of marriage from a spiritual aspect, in that the two are joined together as husband and wife when the pastor pronounces it, and then the two kiss which represents the two becoming one. In many cultures the marriage is not official until the marriage is consummated in the physical sense of the two becoming one. From a biblical perspective it is presented as the two becoming one flesh in regards to marriage. The metaphorical use of it in regards to end times applies to the head (Jesus) becoming one with the body (the elect). So when you take what scripture teaches on the matter, this is when the marriage occurs. Matthew 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The reason this is a problem from your point of view is because your theory requires leaving part of the body out of the marriage, like a bride without a limb or two. This would be the only group Revelation mentions as surviving or turning to and acknowledging God. Revelation 11:13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. Important to note that verse 12 of Revelation 11 is when the two witnesses are taken up as you noted previously, which was the third place John writes of the gathering in Revelation. So this comes after the rapture, making these survivors the individuals left to inhabit the millennial kingdom. No twists necessary. I Thessalonians 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. I'm not sure why you don't see it there, all the dead saints follow Him out of heaven, along with archangels and the trumpet of God. Archangels are warriors, not spectators, they wouldn't be along for the ride if it weren't time for battle. In the past it has been alluded to by pre-tribbers (I believe you said this) that this is some kind of secret gathering where Jesus is hiding in the clouds, but of course under careful examination that makes no sense. The passage says the Lord Himself descends with a shout, a slew of deceased people, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God, doesn't strike me as quiet at all. Not to mention, what on earth would the Lord be hiding from? God bless

Yes, and you are ignoring the rest of the Psalm when you try and claim it represents the church being removed. As I pointed out, that is cherry picking, quite obvious when you take the Psalm as a whole.

I think there is a reason this information was included in the post. "One friend I have know for 30yrs, we have been really close but never really knew each other (we live in different states and have not seen each other in 17yrs). We have both been through abusive marriages, I am still in mine, she is now a widow." If it wasn't applicable I can see no reason to include it, can you?

Well, I am going off of what the OP said in their post in regards to both parties having suffered abuse and one pushing their idea of how to deal with it on the other. So it is applicable and in context with the OP. Either you did not read what the OP said or we didn't understand what was being said as the same thing. I'm a straight shooter too. God bless

What context do you see that does not apply? Is there a scripture anywhere that casts hypocrisy in a good light?

Scripture always says it best.

I have an idea, you are human.