Africa & the Bible: the myth of a cursed race

[Celt]

Now then, for those who read my last posts. Later Assyriologists began to deny the early 3790 B.C. dating for Sargon, and inserted a later history timeline based on other names in the tablets that had no event-history correlation. They became divided into two main schools about the origin of the sudden higher culture among the Sumerians. But most all agreed on the existence of the Black race as Sumerians and a Semitic race of rulers. Some of the ancient Babylon brick tablet carved images of two races in the British Museum even support that.

For those who want to disregard that, you can simply opt out, for I won't answer you, and that because what that evidence shows supports God's creation per The Bible, and the accounts of Genesis 2 through 4 also.

Jer 13:23

23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

(KJV)

There's no Biblical evidence that the races of man sprang from any curse. And that Jeremiah 13 verse is yet another example in favour of the argument of God's creation of all races in the beginning. Nor is there evidence that moving from one location on earth to another produced changes in race.

So just HOW did the races of today come about? And per the documentation about the ancient Sumerian Black race before the flood, how did they come to exist after the flood? For those who really consider this, they'll discover that God creating all the races in the begininng is closer to His Word than the many doctrines of men we've been taught, like curses, and evolution theories.

[Guest shiloh357]

I have not found anywhere in the Old Testament commandments where God said it was OK for Israel to marry among the nations.

What God was forbidding marriage with peoples of other nations on the spiritual grounds, not ethnic grounds.

There are plenty of Scriptures which give His direct command to not take wives of other nations, and that He made Israel a separate people, even severed them from other nations (Lev.20:26).

But that was not for racial separation, but to keep Israel pure and separated from the idolatrous ways of those nations. There is not ONE prohibition about Israelites marrying people of other ethnicities if those peoples turned to serve the Lord.

I realize the word mamzer is considered to mainly mean an offspring out of wedlock, see also Zech.9:6 for its usage.

That is a totally different context and subject matter. You cannot violate the rules of context to support your ridiculous position.

"Judaism" is about the religion of the Jews, an oral based tradition system which groups like the Pharisees came up with after the return from the Babylon captivity. Christ and His Apostle Paul had many things to say against the religion of the Jews.

"Judaism" did not exist in Paul and Jesus' day. What they were criticizing were impure and hypocritical motives, behind the actions of the religious leaders. Jesus did not criticize the traditions, but the way they were implemented to supplant the Scriptures.

Concerning Ruth the Moabitess; there's no evidence she was of a different race. The main argument God had against the Moabites was because how they tried to curse Israel, and had fallen into false worship. Even the other son by Lot's daughter was named 'Benammi', which means "son of my people", referring to Lot's people, who was nephew to Abraham a Hebrew. Benammi became the people of Ammon. We are not told specifically where Lot's wife was from, so it's not enough to say she was of a different people.

It is most likely they daughters and their children intermarried with men of the moab region as it was not uninhabited. The maoabites did not spring solely from daughters of lot, so there is no indication that the moabites were of the same race as the Israelites by the time we get to the story of Ruth.

The evidence that the races did not come out of the man Adam and Eve exists in the Hebrew of Gen.1:26-27, with the difference between the article and particle before the word 'aadam', and also another 'aadam' without which points to mankind in general per the Hebrew.

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. Besides, you obviously don't know Hebrew and are depending on someone else's junk "theology." You appear to be saying that vv. 26 and 27 denote two creations, one of mankind and one of a specific man, but that is not how the passage reads. When God created Adam, He created all mankind. All of mankind was essentially "in Adam." All of humanity is born "in Adam" but when a person is born again, the are taken out of Adam and placed in Christ. The idea that the races were created separately from Adam is a biblically inaccurate and theologically warped view.

One reads this man Adam, and the other reads 'man'. This is why I believe God created a specific man in His Garden to till the soil, which would represent the seed of the woman from which Christ would come, and He also created all the races and placed them outside His Garden, which is represented by the "land of Nod" from which Cain took his wife from. It points to God creating the man Adam, and all the races on His sixth day, and then He said it was good. Adam and Eve having other sons and daughters is not even mentioned until Genesis 5.

Now it just gets more ridiculous. So what you have is Adam created to till the garden. And according to you you have another creation of man (which is NOT mentioned in the Bible) and this subsequent creation was placed outside the garden. This garbage creates a number of theological problems particularly where redemption comes into play, as according to Scripture all sin is passed down through Adam to all men. If all men are descendend from Adam, then only portion of humanity qualified for redemption as Jesus only died for the sin that came through Adam. That would place other races outside of redemption.

Basically you are claiming that there are two kinds of humans, those of Adam and another nonadamic race, which I can only guess which "races" you place in the second category.

Sorry, but this is racist theology. You many intend it to be seen that way, but that is what it is. You are very, very deceived.

Now then, for those who read my last posts. Later Assyriologists began to deny the early 3790 B.C. dating for Sargon, and inserted a later history timeline based on other names in the tablets that had no event-history correlation. They became divided into two main schools about the origin of the sudden higher culture among the Sumerians. But most all agreed on the existence of the Black race as Sumerians and a Semitic race of rulers. Some of the ancient Babylon brick tablet carved images of two races in the British Museum even support that.

That is hardly relevant to this issue and does not really address the issue at hand.

Sorry but your position should be rejected completely by any true Christian.

For those who want to disregard that, you can simply opt out, for I won't answer you, and that because what that evidence shows supports God's creation per The Bible, and the accounts of Genesis 2 through 4 also.

I don't care if you answer or not. I don't answer you except to show other readers how irrational and biblically inaccurate your view is.

[Celt]

Someone who believes the races came from some curse, or by various theories of evolution are actually the 'racists'.

Neither of those corrupt views give all races an equal standing in God's creation.

[nebula]

I have not found anywhere in the Old Testament commandments where God said it was OK for Israel to marry among the nations.

Let me post this again, only this time with the following verses:

Numbers 12

1 Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman. 2 So they said, "Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us also?" And the Lord heard it. 3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth.)

4 Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, "Come out, you three, to the tabernacle of meeting!" So the three came out. 5 Then the Lord came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward. 6 Then He said, "Hear now My words: "If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream. 7 Not so with My servant Moses; He is faithful in all My house. 8 I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings; And he sees the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant Moses?" 9 So the anger of the Lord was aroused against them, and He departed.

10 And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow. Then Aaron turned toward Miriam, and there she was, a leper.

Scripture does not indicate where this Ethiopian woman came from, when Moses married her, or why. Nor does it say why Miriam and Aaron were upset with him over this. But what is clearly written is this:

1) Moses married an Ethiopian woman.

2) Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses over this.

3) The Lord was displeased with Miriam and Aaron for their criticism.

There are plenty of Scriptures which give His direct command to not take wives of other nations, and that He made Israel a separate people, even severed them from other nations (Lev.20:26).

And each time there is an explanation given, the explanation has to do with their worship of other gods, not their race.

Deut. 7

3 Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son. 4 For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the Lord will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly.

Even when speaking of allowing the stranger to come in among Israel, and be treated as one of them, the idea of marriage is not specifically covered; it is assumed only by many (like end of Lev.19).

I'm not seeing what you are seeing.

See Ezra 9-10 after the return of a small remnant of Israel for what many of Israel had done while in the Babylon captivity. Even the children of those mixed marriages were separated per the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah.

Again, the issue is belief and practice, not race:

Ezra 10

10 Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, "You have transgressed and have taken pagan wives, adding to the guilt of Israel. 11 Now therefore, make confession to the Lord God of your fathers, and do His will; separate yourselves from the peoples of the land, and from the pagan wives."

The word "pagan" implies a worshiper of a false god. No one ever uses "pagan" to describe a foreign race but followers of gods other than the LORD.

Even the Nethinim foreigner priests that returned with a remnant of Israel from Babylon could not show their genealogy in Israel, and were thus deemed polluted from the priesthood (Ezra 2).

vs. 59 - but they could not identify their father's house or their genealogy, whether they were of Israel:

The implication is not that they were of mixed blood but that they could not prove their lineage to Israel.

"Judaism" is about the religion of the Jews, an oral based tradition system which groups like the Pharisees came up with after the return from the Babylon captivity. Christ and His Apostle Paul had many things to say against the religion of the Jews.

Celt, I don't know where you are getting your history lessons from, but you are wrong on this.

As Shiloh pointed out, "Judaism" came about ofter the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D.

Jesus (a Jew) and the Apostles (themselves Jews) never spoke against the religion of their people. They spoke against how they corrupted the spirit of the Torah with their traditions. And they spoke about how Torah living is form the heart; they spoke out against the leaders who made Torah about an outward show but lived in corruption in their hearts.

There's a big difference between this and what you are claiming.

[nebula]

The idea about "new blood", so that's why my corrupt college Biology text taught why the royal families of Europe are messed up, because they didn't mix with other races also, but kept to marriages in their own families? Abraham and Sarah were half-sister and half-brother, yet we didn't see the "new blood" idea making a difference with them. A lot of that is just hype by the same ones that want us to believe the false human embyro drawing in Biology texts that looks the same as other animals too.

Inbreeding problems don't become problems within two or three generations.

So let me ask you, Celt - why do the Amish have an unusually high rate of dwarfism and polydactylism (having one or more extra fingers or toes)?

Or how would you explain the problem expressed in this article?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/world/sa...;pagewanted=all

...He was the son of her father's brother -- her first cousin -- and everyone, including the bride, agreed that ''a first cousin was a first choice,'' she said. . . .

... but their third child, a girl, was born with spinal muscular atrophy, a crippling and usually fatal disease that was carried in the genes of both parents. Their fourth, sixth and seventh children were also born with the disorder.

Spinal muscular atrophy and the gene that causes it, along with several other serious genetic disorders, are common in Saudi Arabia, where women have an average of six children and where in some regions more than half of the marriages are between close relatives.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Concerning Ruth the Moabitess; there's no evidence she was of a different race. The main argument God had against the Moabites was because how they tried to curse Israel, and had fallen into false worship. Even the other son by Lot's daughter was named 'Benammi', which means "son of my people", referring to Lot's people, who was nephew to Abraham a Hebrew. Benammi became the people of Ammon. We are not told specifically where Lot's wife was from, so it's not enough to say she was of a different people.

But you are assuming Lot's grandsons married within the family, and their sons married within the family, and their sons married within the family.

There is no evidence for this any more than there is against it.

By the way, what race do you consider Rahab to have been?

The evidence that the races did not come out of the man Adam and Eve exists in the Hebrew of Gen.1:26-27, with the difference between the article and particle before the word 'aadam', and also another 'aadam' without which points to mankind in general per the Hebrew. One reads this man Adam, and the other reads 'man'. This is why I believe God created a specific man in His Garden to till the soil, which would represent the seed of the woman from which Christ would come, and He also created all the races and placed them outside His Garden, which is represented by the "land of Nod" from which Cain took his wife from. It points to God creating the man Adam, and all the races on His sixth day, and then He said it was good. Adam and Eve having other sons and daughters is not even mentioned until Genesis 5.

Theological musings is one thing, but to claim fact over your speculations is simply wrong.

What church or religious group do you belong to?

[Guest HIS girl]

Someone who believes the races came from some curse, or by various theories of evolution are actually the 'racists'.

Neither of those corrupt views give all races an equal standing in God's creation.

There are divisions in all facets of life and Christianity is NOT immune to it - racism is alive and well within Christianity.

I have seen it in Churches, in conversations and in actions minus words - ALTHOUGH many would be the first to say "I am NOT a racist."

Don't even go there with the "I am half Cherokee" thing Celt - that doesn't wash with me as racism is a MINDSET.

Back in Jesus's time - folks liked to keep people in "their place" as well - if you were a woman, poor, "mongrel race" etc, you had a "place". Jesus came and showed us He was NOT for that...Jesus broke the mould, He broke the so called rules - HE shook up society....

Celt, you think I am following society but NO, I in fact follow the actions of Jesus...THAT is who I look to..NOT this Western society that screams of division IN and OUT of the Church.

How is it that we follow the "same God" but are light years away in doctrine? It is because man has become the "authority" of the Bible and deems what he feels is right. When Jesus get's in "the way" and tells us to love one another, some folk nearly have a seizure because there is only CERTAIN people they could show love to....

The foundation work starts here on Earth - in our heads and hearts - way before eternity...

Think about this Celt - Some folk won't sit next to a saved Black person in Church but have no problem with spending eternity in Heaven with them.....hello?? Is something out of whack here?

[Massorite]

Wow, some here are actually going to try and infer that the Jewish people have not tried to keep their race? When did the Jewish people ever teach that it's OK for them to mix up their own race?

Converts to Judaism were always allowed into their congregation.

In the OT Law, the Lord also gave instructions for how they were to take wives for themselves among the people they conquored, if they chose to do so.

You are failing to produce evidence that the Bible speaks of race - anywhere.

God's Word covers the possibility of two of each race on board the ark, because God told Noah to take two of ALL flesh on board in Gen.6.

Celt - you just lost your argument right here.

The Scriptures are quite clear that Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives were the only human beings to have entered the ark.

Read Gen. 7

The Deut.23:2 verse is proof that God does not want us to mix our race. It is about one of mixed race not being allowed to enter the congregation of The LORD to the tenth generation, and that applied to Israel in Old Covenant times.

No it is not. You have inserted your own interpretation of the word mamzer. If you want to convince anyone that this word means "mixed race" and not "illigitimate", you need to offer actual evidence.

It is not a Salvation issue today, but it still shows God created all peoples the way He wanted us to appear. Why else would He declare that for Israel? Because like He said, Israel was to be a holy people to Himself. What happens after the offspring of a mixed race continues to marry only in one side? The mixed racial characteristics begin to be purged out, which shows a natural going back to the way God created, and is the opposite of the idea of evolution of species. It stands as Biblical proof that the races did not spring from evolution.[/

What you are proposing actually results in a problem called inbreeding. Cultures where no "new blood' is added to the mix always result in a high percentage of people born with physical deformities.

About Ruth:

Moab was one of the sons of Lot, and Lot was a son of Abraham's brother Haran (Gen.11). There's no reason to try and create a new race from what Lot's two daughters did unto their father. Trying to say that event created a new race is no different than those who try to say the Black race came out of Ham's sin he did unto his father Noah, to produce Canaan. Because God allowed Ruth, a Moabitess, to be a part of Christ's lineage, likewise with Tamar, Bathsheba and Rahab, it's still not reason enough to assume they were different races simply because of coming from different nations.

What you are missing is that Scripture does not state from which nation Moab obtained his wife.

No, I do not believe that all peoples came out of Adam and Eve, for that's the idea of evolution of species. God is not an evolutionist. Eve is not the mother of all peoples simply because of the phrase "mother of all living". She represents the mother of all living in the spiritual sense, because Christ would be born through her seed, as shown in Genesis 3:15.

And your evidence for such a claim is . . . ?

I have not found anywhere in the Old Testament commandments where God said it was OK for Israel to marry among the nations. There are plenty of Scriptures which give His direct command to not take wives of other nations, and that He made Israel a separate people, even severed them from other nations (Lev.20:26). Even when speaking of allowing the stranger to come in among Israel, and be treated as one of them, the idea of marriage is not specifically covered; it is assumed only by many (like end of Lev.19). See Ezra 9-10 after the return of a small remnant of Israel for what many of Israel had done while in the Babylon captivity. Even the children of those mixed marriages were separated per the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah. Even the Nethinim foreigner priests that returned with a remnant of Israel from Babylon could not show their genealogy in Israel, and were thus deemed polluted from the priesthood (Ezra 2). That was per the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant.

I realize the word mamzer is considered to mainly mean an offspring out of wedlock, see also Zech.9:6 for its usage.

"Judaism" is about the religion of the Jews, an oral based tradition system which groups like the Pharisees came up with after the return from the Babylon captivity. Christ and His Apostle Paul had many things to say against the religion of the Jews.

The idea about "new blood", so that's why my corrupt college Biology text taught why the royal families of Europe are messed up, because they didn't mix with other races also, but kept to marriages in their own families? Abraham and Sarah were half-sister and half-brother, yet we didn't see the "new blood" idea making a difference with them. A lot of that is just hype by the same ones that want us to believe the false human embyro drawing in Biology texts that looks the same as other animals too.

Concerning Ruth the Moabitess; there's no evidence she was of a different race. The main argument God had against the Moabites was because how they tried to curse Israel, and had fallen into false worship. Even the other son by Lot's daughter was named 'Benammi', which means "son of my people", referring to Lot's people, who was nephew to Abraham a Hebrew. Benammi became the people of Ammon. We are not told specifically where Lot's wife was from, so it's not enough to say she was of a different people.

The evidence that the races did not come out of the man Adam and Eve exists in the Hebrew of Gen.1:26-27, with the difference between the article and particle before the word 'aadam', and also another 'aadam' without which points to mankind in general per the Hebrew. One reads this man Adam, and the other reads 'man'. This is why I believe God created a specific man in His Garden to till the soil, which would represent the seed of the woman from which Christ would come, and He also created all the races and placed them outside His Garden, which is represented by the "land of Nod" from which Cain took his wife from. It points to God creating the man Adam, and all the races on His sixth day, and then He said it was good. Adam and Eve having other sons and daughters is not even mentioned until Genesis 5.

Ok so why didn,t God punish or kill Moses for marrying a Black Ethiopian woman? God didn't tell Moses he was wrong, He didn't tell Moses to get rid of her and He punished the sister of Moses for speaking out against it. Go figure.

[P_Joseph]

there is only one cursed race, that is the human race, and Jesus has the Cure for that.

Isaiah 53:5 (New International Version)

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,

he was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,

and by his wounds we are healed.

[Massorite]

there is only one cursed race, that is the human race, and Jesus has the Cure for that.

Isaiah 53:5 (New International Version)

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,

he was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,

and by his wounds we are healed.

The only way a country or race is cursed is because of what they worship. An example would be South America. For most of the countroes down there they have replaced Jesus with Guadalupe or better known as mary. They pray to her. They bless her and evry where you go there are these shrines with a statue off Mary in them along side of the roads. Placed there so people can light candles in them or pray statue.

They are praying to the wrong god. It is no wonder they want to come to America to get away from the violence and poverty.

[Celt]

Ok so why didn,t God punish or kill Moses for marrying a Black Ethiopian woman? God didn't tell Moses he was wrong, He didn't tell Moses to get rid of her and He punished the sister of Moses for speaking out against it. Go figure.

Per Exodus 2 & 3 & 18, Moses' father-in-law Jethro was a priest of Midian, and that would mean of the people of Midian. Midian was a son of Abraham by his later wife Keturah.