Athiest Logic cont'd

[jesta]

I disagree. I think that if an atheist found some sort of proof that God exists, they would convert no questions asked.

I disagree: Most athiests are very anti-God. I think the lord put the idea of God into us. Everyone knows there is a a God in reality.

I agree with this, intifallout. I've always been convinced that belief in God is hard wired into our beings. No other creature in the history of the world, as far as we know, has worshipped a Supreme being. But nearly ALL humans do, excepting those who rebel against the idea that they are not all powerful and are accountable to their Creator....all cultures, races and locations. I don't believe in coincidence.

I realize this is old, but it looks interesting.

I read very recently that some scientists do believe that religion may be hardwired. I don't know if that is true. I currently have no sense of the supernatural or of God, though if I were hardwired I would have to posses that sense, would I not? Those recent stone age cultures that have been studied, I think, were animists. They had no sense of God, but did believe in rock, wind, tree, and animal spirits, etc. So God, I don't think, is hardwired. But humans have a great capacity to see order where none exists and to imagine purpose in random events. If a tree falls and kills my neighbour he was being punished. If it falls and kills a man breaking into my house I was being protected. The falling tree doesn't prove God exists, it does show that I have an active imagination and that I am will to assign purpose to random events. This willingness to assign purpose says a lot about the psychology of humans but says nothing about God.

firstly we are made knowing god exists the bible states that man is without excuse for in creation and on our hearts and minds we know god thats why when something really tragic happens we call out to god he made us that way, secondly seek god with all your heart mind body and soul and you will find him eveloution is the devils way of convincing us that god doesnt exist so we will be deceived ending in hell if we havnt followed god its what he wants for he hates gods creation thats us as he wants to be greater than god it will never happen . god so loved the world he sent his son jesus his only son as proof he exists historrically , biblically and scientifically proven any other theory is false so never listen to it even charles darwin denied evolution on his death bead he stated there had to be a creator it is God

[MorningGlory]

firstly we are made knowing god exists the bible states that man is without excuse for in creation and on our hearts and minds we know god thats why when something really tragic happens we call out to god he made us that way, secondly seek god with all your heart mind body and soul and you will find him eveloution is the devils way of convincing us that god doesnt exist so we will be deceived ending in hell if we havnt followed god its what he wants for he hates gods creation thats us as he wants to be greater than god it will never happen . god so loved the world he sent his son jesus his only son as proof he exists historrically , biblically and scientifically proven any other theory is false so never listen to it even charles darwin denied evolution on his death bead he stated there had to be a creator it is God

[Botz]

Hitchey....

Many people are absolutely convinced that there is not God. My children are second generation atheists. They know there is no God with the same certainty they know there is no Santa Claus.

That is an impossibility...no one can say they know there is no G-d, the only being qualified to do so is G-d Himself.

....

We are programmed, I think, to deeply abide by our earliest training. We can readily give up belief in Santa because our parents openly admit to the hoax, but when our parents, grandparents, cousins, acquaintances and strangers all believe in God, then abandoning the belief becomes much more difficult, even frightening; such that some who drift away eventually find their way back. .

This is what we touched on before....when a person has a tangible life-changing encounter with the living G-d, it goes beyond a set of beliefs that may fluctuate with feelings or circumstances.... into a revelation, a personal encounter, so real that your life can never be the same again, and even if you are determined to turn your back on G-d for whatever reasons, you cannot deny He is...only that you do not want to continue as a disciple. I would say that having family and friends that know G-d in the same personal way, can be a tremendous strength, help iand encouragement n the midst of an unbelieving sceptical world that would rather see you conform to their understanding than abide by faith in Him....there is nothing new under the sun.

In myself the allure of belief has completly left. My children never had it. Not all of us are hardwired to believe. I have never seen people believe with such intensity as at this forum. Clearly something is going on, but I don't think belief is hardwired; or if it is, it is only with some.

The 'allure of belief' as you put it, is always just a split-second away, and G-d can touch your heart in an instant, so that everything you have thought about yourself and your place in the world is completely turned upside down...its not over till the fat lady sings...G-d has a way of melting the hardest of hearts.

I think many people in this Forum come from a diverse world-wide community and merely reflect biblical faith, and maybe what you have been exposed to in the past has been of a slightly different form...don't forget that in a Forum like this everyone gets the opportunity to express more clearly personal experiences and what G-d and faith means.

I hope no one takes offence with my words.

I don't think there is reason for even the thinnest-skinned person to take offence at your words.

[Guest shiloh357]

They know there is no God with the same certainty they know there is no Santa Claus.

If you claim that you KNOW there is no God, you have placed the burden of proof upon yourself.

For anyone to KNOW there is no God would require them to have been able to examine every square inch of the universe, know every galaxy, to exist in every possible dimension, to have witnessed the very creation of our known universe in order to know and verify that there has never been and is not now any "God" in any shape or form. In essence, to have have the knowledge necessary to claim there is no God and to make that a claim a statement of fact, you would, for all practical purposes, have to be "God." You would have to be all-knowing.

People like me on the other hand, believe God exists. I cannot prove His existence. I am more than comfortable with making a statement of faith. I believe there is evidence for my faith, as I don't believe God asks for faith without first providing the evidence. To claim, however, that I know for a fact that God exists, places a burden of proof upon me that I cannot live up to and would be a foolish claim to make. Same holds true for claiming as fact and certainty that there is no God.

[Botz]

Shiloh...

People like me on the other hand, believe God exists. I cannot prove His existence. I am more than comfortable with making a statement of faith. I believe there is evidence for my faith, as I don't believe God asks for faith without first providing the evidence. To claim, however, that I know for a fact that God exists, places a burden of proof upon me that I cannot live up to and would be a foolish claim to make. Same holds true for claiming as fact and certainty that there is no God.

Not sure I agree with this statement bro...

I would say unequivocably that I know for a fact G-d exists, and I am sure this is true for the majority of Believers who have truly been born again....I cannot imagine Paul, Peter or John worrying about any burden of proof, or whether they sounded or looked foolish...they would just be telling the truth...I do not even have to try to convince another of my claim, as I know beyond a shadow of a doubt G-d is.

There is a vast difference between what I claim, and what has already been claimed by Hitchey....mine is a possibility, even if a person does not believe me...the other is an impossibility whoever claims it...as you already pointed out.

[Guest shiloh357]

I would say unequivocably that I know for a fact G-d exists, and I am sure this is true for the majority of Believers who have truly been born again....I cannot imagine Paul, Peter or John worrying about any burden of proof, or whether they sounded or looked foolish...they would just be telling the truth...I do not even have to try to convince another of my claim, as I know beyond a shadow of a doubt G-d is.

I guess I need to clarify what I mean. I have an inner knowing that God exists, but I do not have proof. There is point where claiming to "know" God exists implies that you have incontrovertible proof of that statement. I am very careful never to paint myself in corner by making a claim I cannot back up. My inner knowing is enough for me, but my inner knowing is still faith. It is evidentiary faith, not blind faith. I can evidence for faith, but I am very careful to present it as evidence.

I cannot convince someone who does not want to believe and will not believe. But there is enough evidence available for the true seeker if they are willing to reasonable and fair about what is presented.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

I believe there is evidence for my faith, as I don't believe God asks for faith without first providing the evidence.

Such evidence would prove the existence of God. Now you are assuming the burden of proof. What is your evidence?

No, evidence does not "prove" anything. That is not the nature of evidence. Evidence is not proof. Evidence simply provides a platform for demonstrating a reasonable basis for a theory or belief.

It is important to note that the Bible links itself to real places and historically verifiable peoples and events. The uniqueness of the Christian faith is that it is grounded in historical and geographic fact. Its converging lines of evidence are rooted in a setting of real times, places, and witnesses.

What that means is that the people in the New Testament who were martyred on account of their profession of Jesus, were not dying for a belief. They were dying for professing something they knew to be true. No one dies for something they know is a lie. A person may die for a belief, but no one dies for lie, particularly if they are author of it.

The archeological record continues to consistently verify Biblical accounts of cities, regions and personages mentioned in the Bible, which provides evidence to veracity of the Bible.

None of this "proves" the existence of God, but the Bible's reliability in some many other areas is found to be credible and in some cases, even airtight and this in one reason why we have a reason to trust the biblical writers where their testimony of God is concerned.

When we examine the life of Jesus, we again, see that his life is tied to real places and historical personages, which can be verified by secular historians. Those who died for their testimony were witness to his miracles, which were performed openly and in a manner that could be faked. He healed people who the surrounding populace knew were ill and in some cases were born with maladies like blindness, palsy, deformed or withered body parts and the local magicians and healers could not help them. Jesus did not act like a mad man, did not seek to capitalize on his influence, though many urged him to take control of the government.

QUOTE

For anyone to KNOW there is no God would require them to have been able to examine every square inch of the universe, know every galaxy, to exist in every possible dimension, to have witnessed the very creation of our known universe in order to know and verify that there has never been and is not now any "God" in any shape or form.

Naturally, but the reverse is also true. To know that there is a God would require the same search -- an impossible task.

Not really. God has made himself known and has provided all the evidence you need, IF you want to believe. However, there is no weight of evidence that can be provided to anyone who is dead set in their mind that they will not believe no matter what is presented.

Christians make statements of fact about God that cannot be proven to anyone except people of faith. I then point out that if the dogmas have no universally recognized proofs then I have no grounds on which to believe any of the statements of faith.

What statements?

Yes, but also when you claim there is evidence, as you did above, you must assume the burden of demonstrating that evidence. I suspect that your evidence is faith based. That is, it would not be recognized as sufficient by any except for those who already believe.

Actually the evidence is not simply "faith-based" but based on things that just about anyone can examine for themselves.

[Guest]

..... the fact that the tree was weakened by rot and fell over on my house during the storm, or did God cause the tree to fall as a warning for some action of mine? Scripture would take the second view and it is in that same light that every thing in the Bible is interpreted.

Teacher!

Oh Teacher!

You Forgot The Fact

That The SIN Of Man Brought Rot

Into This Sad Sin Drenched And Dying World

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Romans 5:12

And You Failed To Mention The Hope Of All Believers

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Romans 5:8-9

Some Teacher You Turned Out To Be!

"And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?"

Luke 6:39

>>>>>()<<<<<

Truth In Beginnings

The Fall Heard Around The World

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Genesis 3:6

And Grace Entered Into Paradise

"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

Genesis 3:21

And Everything In The Bible

"Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,"

Psalms 40:7

"Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God."

Hebrews 10:7

Points To Jesus

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 14:6

Points To THE LIGHT

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."John 1:3-5

To The SON Of God Who Came

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Hebrews 12:2

To Full Pay The Debt Of Sin Owed HIM

"And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Acts 26:15-18

It Helps Oh Teacher If The Holy Bible Is Read On Bended Knees And Without The Haze Of Hatred Toward It's Author

"But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

Proverbs 8:36

Can You Still Believe?

[MorningGlory]

Ah, humor. Of course we can track the evolution of social mores in Western culture.

Are you saying, MorningGlory, that you think evolution has taken place among animals but not among humans?

Sure, evolution has occurred within nonhuman species; that's undeniable. You, I, and the 6.5 billion other inhabitants of this planet are indistinguishable from the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens though. Other than environmentally induced changes (people are bigger now) there is very little difference.

Other than? That's pretty significant in my books. Icelanders look a lot different than Pygmy Bushmen. So much different in fact that I question whether a pygmy female could easily give birth to offspring from a six foot, plus, male. Physical differences are so real that it makes me wonder what the first humans infact looked like.

Like I said; environmentally induced changes. The pygmy bush woman and an Icelandic man could, indeed, procreate. Racial intermingling is pretty commonplace. The two people are only superficially different. We are basically the same as the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens. That's scientific fact, my friend, and easily verified.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hmm? Seems we are playing with words. You know that God exists because of the evidence, but evidence is not proof, therefore you don't need to prove the legitimacy of the facts (evidence)? Have I gotten things muddled?

Yes you have. I said I "believe" God exists, based upon what I consider to be credible evidence. I took pains to make clear that I cannot "prove" the existence of God. I can present evidence that I believe gives at least a logical basis for what I believe, but it is up to you what you do with it. God does not hold me responsible for what you do with what is presented. That is entirely up to you.

It seems to me that if we view certain facts as evidence demonstrating the existence of God, then that really does constitute your proof of the same.

No, evidence is not proof. Evidence simply provides a basis for a claim. It does not "prove" the claim is true, beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think we must be careful in our claims. Many works of fiction might do the same.

There is a difference between works of what we call "historical fiction" and genuine historical literature.

I would certainly hold the view that the Bible contains reference to historical events, people and places, but that doesn't rule out that many claims therein might be faith based. We have to look at particular instances and not make blanket statements.

I am not making "blanket statements." So far, not one credible historian has found the Bible to be historically inaccurate.

I agree, for instance that the Bible talks about historical figures, such as Herod, but it doesn't follow that everything said of Herod is historically accurate.

If you claim the Bible is inaccurate, then from legal standpoint, it is up to you provide the basis of that claim, as the burden of proof lies with you. If you cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Bible makes inaccurate claims, then the claims of the Bible remain and the Bible is vindicated.

A key point to remember is that everything in the Bible is interpreted from the standpoint of faith.

That is not true.

For example, was it the fact that the tree was weakend by rot and fell over on my house during the storm, or did God cause the tree to fall as a warning for some action of mine? Scriputure would take the second view and it is in that same light that every thing in the Bible is interpreted.

No, that is a value YOU are assigning to the Bible. The Bible does not claim that everything happens to us because God caused it to happen. In fact, the Bible goes to great pains to show how that calamity and misfortune are the product of poor of planning, irresponsiblilty, laziness, miscalcultion and other forms of human error. The reason the rotted tree fell on your house is because YOU did not take action sooner as a responsible homeowner and have the tree removed from your premises. At least that is how the Bible would present it. Jesus said that rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. Problems and misfortune are part of the human experience and will be long as this veil of tears remains.

People do die for things they mistakenly believe to be true.

Which is basically what I said. You are missing the point, though. If the apostles lied about the resurrection of Jesus, if they made the whole thing up, they simply would not have allowed themselves to be tortured, when simply admitting the truth would have set them free. In truth, everything in the Bible rests on the resurrection of Jesus. If Jesus was not resurrected, the Christian faith is a sham. If Jesus was not resurrected, then there is no hope. The resurrection of Jesus is rooted in history, real places, real people and real events.

As I mentioned above fiction routinely speaks of real persons, places and events.

Yes, but the Bible doesn't simply mention them. The witness of Scripture rooted in those events as real events. The parts of the Bible YOU reject as true are linked to those events. They form a point of reference from which the more incredible claims of the Bible can be verified.

The presence of these real things in the Bible in no way means that everything else is accurate or true. That claim is a statement of faith. It is not a statement of objective truth.

The question is are the events true? If so, then they provide a basis for examining the rest of what the Bible claims. The events the Bible mentions are often witnessed by more than one person meaning that it is not a case of simply dismissing the claim of one person, but in some cases, hundreds of people.